Well it wasn’t maneuverable, was it?
Why in the hell would you count that one? xD
If by close-in you mean tightening down from an energy fight beyond my reversal, that isn’t quite close-in.
Nah, I think I can outrate you if I did it right. Wouldn’t be hard against an F-15.
Absolutely.
I consider instantaneous turn, sustained turn, and energy retention to be components of maneuverability. Su-27 is worse than the F-15A in 2/3 of those categories and barely better in one of them.
I generally give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these kind of things so that I can’t be accused of making excuses. Same reason I am counting second turn head-on even though I generally do not shoot in them.
There are more than a few times where I went slow and didn’t force pure rate/energy fight. Not willingly flying in front of your guns while you stall yourself out is a pretty smart and reliable tactic though.
I doubt it. If it wasn’t hard you would have figured it out in our dueling session. Also the sustained turn rate of the Su-27 is inferior to the F-15A.
The fact that you do after getting so resoundingly trounced is a testament to your delusion. There are multiple sim players that would be able to repeat the same test against you and probably get similar results. Simply put…you are not as good as you think that you are…and the Su-27 is not as good as you think that it is.
Yeah, there is a lot that goes into maneuverability, and a well-balanced aircraft would fare a lot better.
F-15 still sucks though.
At that point don’t count any of them, 4 hours into drinking is when the gits and shiggles come out.
I did for the most part, an offset and climb got me into the position to take a shot, though I’m definitely not hitting shit at 3am with a BAC in the tenths.
I think the only time an Su-27 would ever match an F-15s rate is… what, 500kts?
I am the voice of unreason, after all :3
I’m not saying I did good at all, I was running on a night and a half of no sleep and overproof.
It isn’t at all, though my irrational hatred for F-15s still puts it above them.
@Butt3rsOnBox are you seeing this? He thinks the Flanker is better than the F-15A in a dogfight.
I know, I know, I’m sure this is fresh news for everybody.
You should duel butters with Su-27 and let him use F-15A.
It’ll be funny. We can get the whole squad laughing again.
I bet he’d love to lose :)
In a close range dogfight, R-73s are better than Aim-9M for off-boresight shots (especially when combined with HMD) and R-27ERs are definetly better than Aim-7M.
been a while, but Su-27 does have HMD but the F-15A doesnt right?
So… As long as both aircraft are piloted well. The Su-27 definetly has some clear advantages over the F-15A in a WVR fight. Heck Id even give them a clear advantage in a BVR with the ability to fire off 4-6 R-27ERs vs 4x Aim-7Ms.
F-15A radar is better for target detection and faster refresh times. It also has a much better RWR.
It is possible for the F-15A to force a fight that defeats the HMD and R-73 shots at close range and then it simply comes down to guns. There is a reason that the Su-27 has never won a major Air RB 1v1 tournament when it comes to dogfighting.
Guns only? Yeah… That doesn’t help much.
Better for target detection? You’re joking, right?
It’s a struggle to find an enemy beyond 40km.
at same time it lacks of TWS - 50/50
low-skill su-27 > low-skill F-15
high-skill su-27 < high skill F-15
seems like that
didnt realise the conversation was guns only, in that situation, yeah, I can see the advantage going back to F-15A. But id say more because the F-15A has the better gun right? High volume of fire and better ammo count?
But I wouldnt count the Su-27 out entirely, especially not when we consider the average skill of US pilots in Sim (99% of the times im TKed, its a US pilot. Heck once got TKed by a guy in an F-15A after I defeated 2x Aim-7Ms fired at me and me spamming pings, I just let the third hit me)
But at top tier. I really dont think the Soviet sit at quite as massive of a disadvantage as they oftne claim. Sure R-77 has less range than Aim-120, but R-77 is better at close range. Sure Su-27SM has a buggy radar, but once fixed, probably not so inferior that it cannot be used (heck i’ve been locked on by a Su-27 faster than my Blue Vixen Radar in the Gripen could even find the target even though I could visually see the aircraft coming at me, in the end I risked just using ACM and hoped it wasnt a friendly locking me, so a dodging radar is not soviet only and back then Skyflash DF stood no chance vs R-27ER)
and then the elephant in the room. Su-27SM can carry 4x R73s, 4x R-77, 2x R-27ER AND 2x R-27ET. They have a missile for literally any situation. God I’d love to have that many missile on the Gripen or Tornado F3
Original topic was on the Su-27, not the Su-27SM. Can’t really factor in R-77s into the Su-27’s sim BR when the Su-27 doesn’t get R-77s.
Then original Su-27 still holds the advantage of R-27ER vs Aim-7M and the ability to carry more. I feel that makes up for any radar related issues (4x R-73 + 4x R-27ER + 2x R27ET is not a loadout to cry about) , and the idea of having to fight them in something like the Harrier Gr7 is actually quite scary to me. That aircraft is unplayable enough as it is just dealing with Mig-29s (though thankfully they are usually pretty bad)
heck, even the FA2, espeically with all its current issues, that doesnt sound fun to me. (though watching Su-27s stall out and crash at low speed is really funny. 3x kills in a 1v2 vs Mig-29 and a Su-27 in a stock Sea Harrier FA2 (1x kill and 2x Maneuver kills) was really really funny
Absolutely.
Its radar isn’t at all a problem, and allows you to detect targets out near 70-80km without issue.
As for the argument that people are incessantly parroting, TWS softlocks are irrelevant and do absolutely nothing for you, except possibly keep track of where an enemy is in your HUD… Which again… Just use your radar…?
With both MiG-29s and Harriers in the mix, there isn’t any reason at all for the Su-27 to be pushed down to 13.0 unless there is a major redesign of the EC brackets.
This and this alone, I give them a sympathy point
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/9yF0BF3nNrFl
Once that is fixed… Yeah… its on them. Heck, they’ll probably be the first with an electronic radar, and im guessing that’ll be the next major update anyway.
Yep… Honestly… This is just a classic case of “wait for new sim brackets” F3 vs Mig-29 for an entire year, I doubt a single soviet main was complaining about that. As soon as 14.0s are added (either via a minor top tier decompress or via new aircraft being added). Im sure there will be a 12.3-13.3 bracket and all will be fine for them again. In the meantime. The Mig-23MLD is criminally under BRed and anything that can actually fight it, is at 12.0+
who knows?
maybe gaijin will implement AESA and PESA in same update(normally, not how it is rn)
That’s quite possibly the only point I can really understand, and sure, it may be seen as a problem. I personally haven’t had any issues with the scan pattern, because again, there’s no reason to soft-lock anybody for any reason.
If you want passive detection in the Su-27, use IRST. It’s what it was designed for.
I’d chalk it up to a few major updates, if not Q3/4’25. Radar and other sensors need a LOT of love.
I’ll duel ya. 15A vs Su 27. I’ll inv ya to a squad rn