Su-27 SIM BR

[UnknownDistance]

@TheArcticFoxxo

Even if you were to use the TWS mode to softlock an enemy, what use would it have?
You imply that its bad refresh rate would be useful if it were better… What would you use it for?

The F-14A has a legitimate purpose for soft-locks. The Su-27 doesn’t.

Soft locks will show the target in the HUD which means you don’t have to rely purely on visually acquiring the target. TWS also provides an indication for speed and direction.

Also targets have to populate on the radar in order for them to be hard locked for R-27ER unless you are purely reliant on the HMD and only acquiring targets visually.

The only semi-effective radar mode that the Su-27 has is PD HDN and it’s still very slow to complete it’s scan pattern and give consistent update on radar contacts.

@TheArcticFoxxo

So… It has the same modes as the Su-27 with far less functionality… Got it.

Being able to widen and narrow the search pattern is less functionality?

I can use wide scan mode to have 120 degree of situational awareness in the same time frame that it takes Su-27 to have half of that. Or I can use narrow scan mode to have much more frequent position updates from it and also reduce the number of subsequent enemy RWRs that I am pinging.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Oh my! 3 different ACM modes?

Too bad HMD entirely trumps that…

HMD does not assist in the detection of targets. You still have to visually acquire them. Having multiple ACM modes is helpful for acquiring close range targets that you know their general location but cannot see.

I.E tall scan mode is pretty good following a merge when maps are dark and enemy target is a small plane against a dark background.

@TheArcticFoxxo

What it loses in offense it gains in defense… Great.

Being able to tell the location and type of aircraft that is pinging you goes beyond just a defensive advantage. Also the Aim-9M is a pretty strong offensive advantage in Air SB.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Because it would be largely unfair and VERY dominant when it comes to 12.0/12.3 aircraft it would face.
Why would it need to lower to 13.0 in the first place?

It wasn’t even very dominant when it was Russia’s highest tiered aircraft in SB. It was still getting destroyed by F-16C without Aim-120, F-15A, Gripen, and Mirage 2000.

The only thing that has changed since then is the radar has gotten worse (double scan), the Gripen flight model has been nerfed (it still wins against everything but can’t just pull full stick back and do it automatically) and multi-pathing was reduced to 60m.

[Morvran]

pssst… Whats BFM?

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@Ninjato70x7

BFM duel F15A vs Su 27

That’s already been done?

@Ninjato70x7

then we can switch to BVR fight too if you want even F15C vs. Su 27SM

When the hell did either the F-15C or Su-27SM come into this?

[Ninjato70x7-psn]

@TheArcticFoxxo

@Ninjato70x7

BFM duel F15A vs Su 27

That’s already been done?

With who? Did you win? Did you prove your point that Su 27 is currently better in BFM?

@TheArcticFoxxo

When the hell did either the F-15C or Su-27SM come into this?

Bro. You’re ducking. You claim the Su 27 is better at BFM, and that it’s radar isn’t lacking. If you stand by those points. Then prove it. I’m waiting

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@UnknownDistance

Soft locks will show the target in the HUD which means you don’t have to rely purely on visually acquiring the target. TWS also provides an indication for speed and direction.

And the Su-27 does just that, with refresh times doing very little to aid. As I’ve been saying multiple times now, you have IRST for a passive track that shows exactly where the enemy is, and they won’t be given any information as to how far away you are nor what kind of aircraft you are… Or even your direction and height.

Ah yes, speed a direction… Two things the F-15A isn’t given by its radar while the Su-27 is.

@UnknownDistance

Also targets have to populate on the radar in order for them to be hard locked for R-27ER unless you are purely reliant on the HMD and only acquiring targets visually.

Is there any reason why they wouldn’t? You don’t need to wait for multiple refreshes on TWS to be able to lock an enemy… You simply acquire and lock.

@UnknownDistance

The only semi-effective radar mode that the Su-27 has is PD HDN and it’s still very slow to complete it’s scan pattern and give consistent update on radar contacts.

It’s quite literally TWS but worse.

@UnknownDistance

Being able to widen and narrow the search pattern is less functionality?

Not having TWS nor an HMD is less functionality, as well as having it displayed in a worse method.

@UnknownDistance

HMD does not assist in the detection of targets. You still have to visually acquire them. Having multiple ACM modes is helpful for acquiring close range targets that you know their general location but cannot see.

Neither does ACM, unless you’re simply brute-forcing your way through the map at 19km increments with boresight on.

Do you want to know what else is great for acquiring close-range targets when you know their general location and can’t see them?
IRST!
Also doesn’t give the enemy a hard tone when you lock them… As said before.

@UnknownDistance

I.E tall scan mode is pretty good following a merge when maps are dark and enemy target is a small plane against a dark background.

Tall scan mode is effective for locking somebody in your control zone, not attempting to find some mystically hidden enemy on a somewhat hard backdrop.

@UnknownDistance

Being able to tell the location and type of aircraft that is pinging you goes beyond just a defensive advantage. Also the Aim-9M is a pretty strong offensive advantage in Air SB.

True, though that mostly plays into its defensive capabilities still. It would be quite easy to turn that into an attack, though nowhere near as much as an IRT indication.

[UnknownDistance]

@Morvran

@UnknownDistance

Ja-37

JA37C which is notable less powerful than MLD

AIm-9Ps vs R-60Ms
Skyflash DFs vs R-24s
48 LCMs vs 60 LCMs
No PD radar vs MTI

I was under the impression that the Ja-37 that was downtiered has Aim-9L and PD radar. I might be wrong on this then.

@Morvran

Has no IFF and relatively weak rear aspect IR missiles only

It has strong flight model for dogfight and very cold engines. It is a plane you have to run away from.

@Morvran

Spends 50% of its time on the same team as the MLD

My experience has been that there are more populated lobbies that are France vs USSR than USA vs France.

@Morvran

If you are being killed by an A-10C in a Mig-23MLD that is a major skill issue

Well then the majority of the sim community has skill issues considering I was able to get over 300 player kills in the A-10C since it was released. This includes sim content creators who are working on a squad.

@Morvran

Id argue that it actually gets 3/4 rotations. It is imo, the second strongest jet at 11.7 behind the Mirage F1C-200. So it gets R1 and R4 at 11.7 and R2 at 11.3 where it can comfortable dominate most aircraft. But quite a few 11.3s and even a few 11.7s are forced to always fight the MLD without reprieve. Like the Tornado Gr1, Sea Harrier FRS1 Kfir Canard, heck Id also include the AMX A-1A if it wasnt always paired with the MLD. Which is really unfair. Either it shouldnt have moved down or a LOT of 11.3s should be at 11.0

All of the planes that you are mentioning are basically some of the worst for their brackets or just farmer-mobiles.

None of the Tornados in-game have a good matchup against anything if the player on the opposite end has half of a brain.

@Morvran

90% of Bluefors 11.3/11.7 line up is ground attackers with most actual fighters meant to fight the MLD at 12.0 or higher

It’s because the other planes they have are just as under tiered or they are over tiered.

The PD Phantoms could all move down. The agile eagle Phantoms are under tiered. The F8U is severely under tiered.

@Morvran

It would be like putting the Tornado F3 at 11.7 just because it doesnt turn well. its kinda insane the MLD moved down

Tornado F.3 could be 11.7 in the current matchmaker and it wouldn’t change much. It’s an absolutely garbage plane when if it has to fight 12.3 Mirages and 12.3 F-14s.

@Morvran

congratulations. This doesnt just affect the Su-27SM. This also affects the Tornado F3 Late and F4 which has a major disadvantage vs even something like the Su-27SM, let alone the F-15Cs or Gripen Cs. Soviets are not the only ones affected by the lack of 13.3 bracket, much in the same way, many nations were screwed by the lack of 11.7 bracket for the entirety of 2023 or the lack of a 12.3 bracket right now. harrier Gr7 forced to be at 12.7 rather sucks and also halves the brackets where Tornado F3 might be viable as it instead fights 12.7s or 13.0s and that is too big of a leap for it. At least with its current CMs

Soviets are expected to make up the majority of the opposite side of the matchmaker. USA being handheld by BR system means I cannot find games to play.

Su-27 should be moved down to 13.0. So should the Tornado and the F4F ICE.

[SidewaysCube946]

Basic fighter maneuvers I think

[Morvran]

@UnknownDistance

I was under the impression that the Ja-37 that was downtiered has Aim-9L and PD radar. I might be wrong on this then.

JA37D at 12.0 has the 9ls, the C has Aim-9Ps. I made a mistake with the PD, it does and its better than the FGR2s. Though the Skyflash DFs… Arent that great on PD, or at least the PDV on the FGR2

@UnknownDistance

My experience has been that there are more populated lobbies that are France vs USSR than USA vs France.

That is probably because US players joining the lobbies with the french (I know I do as Britain) specifically because Mirage F1 is pretty much the only hard-counter to the MLD and fighting both, especially in something weak. Is not fun.

@UnknownDistance

Tornado F.3 could be 11.7 in the current matchmaker and it wouldn’t change much. It’s an absolutely garbage plane when if it has to fight 12.3 Mirages and 12.3 F-14s.

I steam roll the Mig-23MLDs in it and even quite happily fight the Mirage 2Ks (you out stick them in the BVR and then outrun them afterwards, just dont try to turn fight them) and even quite happily wiped out a F-14A (you have better SARH, Better RWR and Better radar) and that is all before the new FM.

The Problem at flying it at 12.7 is that the Mig-29 and F-16 are equal or faster than you, can match you in the BVR if you arent careful (R-27ER is WAY better than Skyflash STs) and you cant fight them in the WVR at all, even with the new FM.

F3 is an exceptionally good aircraft these days, Just needs BOL fixed or Phimat. Pretty much its only weakness these days is having essentially non-funcitonal CMs. Main reason why I havent touched the F3 Late yet to spade it. Just a shame there is no 12.3 bracket so it only has 1/4 its playable as it stands no chance vs the 12.7s it faces.

[UnknownDistance]

@TheArcticFoxxo

And the Su-27 does just that, with refresh times doing very little to aid. As I’ve been saying multiple times now, you have IRST for a passive track that shows exactly where the enemy is, and they won’t be given any information as to how far away you are nor what kind of aircraft you are… Or even your direction and height.

The TWS tracks in the Su-27 are slow enough to update that they might as well not be there in the standard TWS mode.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Ah yes, speed a direction… Two things the F-15A isn’t given by its radar while the Su-27 is.

The F-15 gives target location for more reliably and much faster if you know how to use the radar. Tailoring the scan pattern for the situation is a big tool that is under utilized by most players.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Is there any reason why they wouldn’t? You don’t need to wait for multiple refreshes on TWS to be able to lock an enemy… You simply acquire and lock.

You are assuming the scan pattern doesn’t just miss the enemy the first time or that there is no change in altitude between the first and second scans that it takes to IFF the target.

@TheArcticFoxxo

It’s quite literally TWS but worse.

It’s the most usable mode because it reduces the refresh time.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Not having TWS nor an HMD is less functionality, as well as having it displayed in a worse method.

HMD has nothing to do with the radar and radar detection. There is no scan/detection mode where the radar is slaved to the HMD.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Tall scan mode is effective for locking somebody in your control zone, not attempting to find some mystically hidden enemy on a somewhat hard backdrop.

You probably don’t know how to use it then or just don’t have any experience in actual sim battles. I know that 90 percent of the custom games you play have Air RB markers turned on.

@TheArcticFoxxo

True, though that mostly plays into its defensive capabilities still. It would be quite easy to turn that into an attack, though nowhere near as much as an IRT indication.

If you can pick me up with IRST…I can pick you up with radar. The range limitation of IRST is pretty severe and it is not able to IFF.

It’s also not like experienced sim players are unfamiliar with the concept of flying around the map with IRST or the radar turned off.

[CorporalApollo-psn]

@Morvran

@UnknownDistance

F5E.

Has no IFF and relatively weak rear aspect IR missiles only (and only 2 of them)

F5E is a perfectly capable fighter. It’s got the modern RWR, which identifies and gives direction/distance to whoever turns on their radar on the map. You could almost say (aside from launching R24R’s) the 23MLD’s radar is a detriment going up against F5E. If 23MLD scans anywhere in the F5’s vicinity (doesn’t have to actually find the F5), the F5 will know and can hone in with high accuracy on the location of the 23MLD. It’s RWR both serves as detection and IFF. It’s also about the only flight model that didn’t get nerfed when most other 3rd gen stuff was 2 months ago.

@Morvran

If you are being killed by an A-10C in a Mig-23MLD that is a major skill issue

I think you severely underestimate just how good the survivability and situational awareness of the A10C is. Couple that with 4x invisible IRCCM missiles, tight turn radius, best gun in the game, MAWS and unlimited flares.

@Morvran

JA37C which is notable less powerful than MLD

AIm-9Ps vs R-60Ms
Skyflash DFs vs R-24s
48 LCMs vs 60 LCMs

I agree, they used to be more on par IMO, JA37C made up for worse/unique FM and worse missiles with much greater radar/situational awareness. RWR rework/changes and FM changes didn’t work too much in JA37C’s favour. JA37C also went up 0.3 BR.

[UnknownDistance]

@Morvran

I steam roll the Mig-23MLDs in it and even quite happily fight the Mirage 2Ks (you out stick them in the BVR and then outrun them afterwards, just dont try to turn fight them) and even quite happily wiped out a F-14A (you have better SARH, Better RWR and Better radar) and that is all before the new FM.

BVR can be negated by flat maps and multi-pathing.

F-14 has the same SARH missiles in one case. Or it has better SARH and good ARH in the case of the Iranian one.

The new FM is still not going to cause it to win any dogfights. It will only slightly less frequently compress and smash into the ground.

@Morvran

F3 is an exceptionally good aircraft these days, Just needs BOL fixed or Phimat. Pretty much its only weakness these days is having essentially non-funcitonal CMs. Main reason why I havent touched the F3 Late yet to spade it. Just a shame there is no 12.3 bracket so it only has 1/4 its playable as it stands no chance vs the 12.7s it faces.

I disagree. It is only good when it is fighting at 12.0 and lower.

[Whisloy]

Wait a minute is that fully loaded F-15A vs empty loaded Su-27 ?

[UnknownDistance]

I carried missiles for some of them because I didn’t have a clean load out that is pre-made.

[HeadEyezed]

bruh US mains never disappoint. they got multiple aim-120 slingers at 13.0 and us mains never complained about this shit, but this mf thinks ERs will be a problem of climbing. SUDDENLY

[Tea_And_Country]

im not even at jets for USA lmao, im a british main. But multiple? they got an av 8 just as we have a shar, cant think of any other 120 slingers at 13.0 apart from them for us. Plus, an r27er is harder to defeat than a 120.

[Farlexgamer_psn]

@Tea_And_Country

cant think of any other 120 slingers at 13.0 apart from them for us

Not really for the US, but blue for in general, they of course have the f14s, Av8B, sea harrier, Kfir C10 and occasionally even the Ja37DI.

Still, the 3 best planes for that bracket are Jas39A, F15A and arguably Mirage 4k/Kfir C10.

2 of these are always on bluefor, while the other 2 can switch sides depending on the matchup

[HeadEyezed]

@Tea_And_Country

they got an av 8 just as we have a shar, cant think of any other 120 slingers at 13.0 apart from them for us.

3 harriers (us, brit, italy) depending on the setup, f4f ice also depending on the setup, both late viggens (tech tree and premium) and kfir c.10. so thats at LEAST 3 depending on the setup. Apart from that, F-14 has 6 phoenixes that are notchable only in small window of 5-15 seconds after launch (unless you aren’t playing a flat map, which is not possible 8/10 times a day since bluefor plays only the easiest flattest maps in existence like denmark, sinai or tunisia, etc).
Then its a long time of RWR earrape, and then the last small opportunity window to dodge it with sharp crank when its 300-500m away from you. Otherwise you explode from a proxy fuze since that missile has 60kg of TntEq.
For this exact reason you’ll die if you attempt to multipath it. And US has 3 of those tomcats on 12.3-12.7, the only thing stopping them from ruining lobbies is the absolute absence of skill and game knowledge on US mains part.
Also let`s not downplay the fact that premium hornet (which sold and sells, and will be sold the most out of all the hornets in the game, quite possibly the most out of all the premium toptier planes in the game) has the best radar, RWR, HUD, airframe, gun placement, missile count (for its size) at the entire <13.0

@Tea_And_Country

Plus, an r27er is harder to defeat than a 120.

In what world SARH missile “is harder to defeat” than ARH missile? How come your thought process put SARH(continuous radar tracking of a SINGLE target only, until impact) higher than ARH(fire and forget, multiple datalinks in TWS mode) in terms of strength and effectiveness in first place???
(???)

@Tea_And_Country

Plus, an r27er is harder to defeat than a 120

Also, there is absolutely no logic that can justify Su-27 sitting higher than: F-15A(in 3 nations), F-14B, F/A-18c early, Gripen A, and all other mentioned fox-3 carriers. The fact that su-27 sits at a bracket, where it ALWAYS plays against absolute toptier, whilst being GENERATIONS behind it is yet another case of gaijin intentionally ruining the game for more sales.

That said away, god`s witness, bluefor playerbase en masse still sucks at the game even when having quantitatively and qualitatively superior vehicle pool. And it sure will continue to do so even after F-35 comes out

[Morvran]

US has the AV-8B+

Britain has the Sea Harrier FA2 (which is arguably the weakest aircraft at 13.0 at the moment)

Israel has the Kfir C10

That is all the ARH slingers you really need to worry about from bluefor side because if you are dying to an F-14 its a major skill issue.

The strongest ARH slinger by a country mile at 13.0 though is the F4F ICE which is 99.99% of the time on the Redfor side and I have never seen it on the bluefor side.

Italy with the AV-8B+ quite often appears on Red for too

The Viggen DI can be on either team, so just pick a lobby with Sweden if you dislike fighting them.

The fact is, Bluefor should actually have access to stronger ARH slingers to counter the ICE such as the Tornado F3 Late but has been so far denied.

@HeadEyezed

In what world SARH missile “is harder to defeat” than ARH missile? How come your thought process put SARH(continuous radar tracking of a SINGLE target only, until impact) higher than ARH(fire and forget, multiple datalinks in TWS mode) in terms of strength and effectiveness in first place???

They are. Once they go active, you only have to defeat the radar within the seeker as they no longer recieve updates from the launch aircraft. These seekers are just a basic radar that can be notched very easily. SARH requires defeating the launch aircrafts radar and many can be extremely hard to chaff/notch. Also, SARH with IOG such as R-24R, R-27ER and Aim-7P can be very dangerous even after being chaffed. The only major advantage with ARH is that they can attack and defend simutaneously.

I know from playing the Tornado Gr4 in 13.0 brackets, that an AMRAAM fired from an F4F ICE is easier to defeat than an R-27ER from a Mig-29

@HeadEyezed

Also, there is absolutely no logic that can justify Su-27 sitting higher than: F-15A(in 3 nations), F-14B, F/A-18c early, Gripen A, and all other mentioned fox-3 carriers. The fact that su-27 sits at a bracket, where it ALWAYS plays against absolute toptier, whilst being GENERATIONS behind it is yet another case of gaijin intentionally ruining the game for more sales.

As does the Tornado F3 Late, and J-11A, and Mig-29SMT and probably a few others im forgetting. Should they all be moved down to 13.0? Probably a fair few 13.7s too.

What is needed is a new set of BR brackets that includes a 12.3-13.3 bracket and then move several 13.0s up, lets try and avoid making 13.0 stupidly compressed. We likewise need a 11.3-12.3 bracket and that would allow us to sort out the mess that is 12.3/12.7 aircraft at the moment, more than a few could end up at 13.0, but also you have aircraft that can fianlly operate at 12.3 and not 12.7

@HeadEyezed

That said away, god`s witness, bluefor playerbase en masse still sucks at the game even when having quantitatively and qualitatively superior vehicle pool. And it sure will continue to do so even after F-35 comes out

This is just pure cope.

Or do I need to remind you that the Mig-23MLD is at 11.3 and its direct bluefor counters such as the F-4S, F-4J and Tornado F3 are all 12.0

[ron_2303]

@Morvran_

The strongest ARH slinger by a country mile at 13.0 though is the F4F ICE which is 99.99% of the time on the Redfor side and I have never seen it on the bluefor side.

it is 100% on red side

germany is the only country that cant be matchmaked with the US on the same team

@Morvran_

The only major advantage with ARH is that they can attack and defend simutaneously.

yeah which poses the plane with SARH missiles at an extrem disadvantage compared to an arh slinger

@Morvran_

This is just pure cope.

F-16a vs Mig-29
F-14 vs Mig-29
F-18A/C early vs Mig-29

and i still see ppl complain about the Mig-29 in some matches

this is what the 12.7 bracket looks like all day and it only gets slightly better for red side on 13.0 days where they have the F-4F ICE and the Mig-29G

but bluefor gets F-15A, the ARH Harriers and the Ja-37Di/ Grippen depending on the match maker

as it stand Blufor gets alot more planes on 13.0 days than Redfor, independent of the match maker
and then there are also match makers like this:

blue side profits alot more than the already suffering red side on 13.0 days

@Morvran_

F-4S, F-4J and Tornado F3 are all 12.0

JA-37D and Mirage F-1C being 11.7

[Morvran]

@ron_2303

F-16a vs Mig-29
F-14 vs Mig-29
F-18A/C early vs Mig-29

From my perspective of playing Britain its

Tornado F3, Or Harrier Gr7 or Tornado GR4 vs Mig-29, which sucks. I hate dealing with R-27ERs and really wish they swapped the loadout out to its historical fit, Id much rather deal with R-73s than R-27ERs

@ron_2303

but bluefor gets F-15A, the ARH Harriers and the Ja-37Di/ Grippen depending on the match maker

as it stand Blufor gets alot more planes on 13.0 days than Redfor, independent of the match maker

Perhaps, but I still dont see why moving a load of 13.3s down to 13.0 is the right solution for that though.

Just sounds like making the problem worse, not better and I really dont want to deal with Su-27 in the Tornado F3 or Sea Harrier FA2. Especially as we dont even get access to the Tornado F3 Late to counter the ICE yet (which I find really really annoying)

Id still prefer a 13.3 bracket and the ICE to move up than the F3 Late to move down though

@ron_2303

then there are also match makers like this:

This is just the problem with people making bad lobbies. In this soviets are actually matched with the US.

@ron_2303

JA-37D and Mirage F-1C being 11.7

Which can be on either team, last time I played a 11.0-12.0 match, I pretty much exclusively fought Mirage F1Cs in the Tornado F3. But If I try to play something like the Tornado Gr1, im actually a higher BR than the Mig-23MLD or if I try and play the Sea Harrier FRS1 im the same BR.

Honestly, imo, the biggest issue with the 12.7 and 13.0 brackets is the lack of any redfor Premiums. US has the F-4S, F-20A and F-18 all above 12.0. USSR and Germany have none. This means you get a lot more bluefor playing these brackets and redfor mostly playing the 11.3 bracket where they are absolutely dominant without counter. Everytime ive tried to play the Tornado GR4 since the last major update, every match has been US vs US, so this isnt really even an issue at the moment.