Subs should be implemented in the normal system.
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For any mods seeing this comment, i recently made a suggestion for a new game mode known as carrier strike group. can someone approve my suggestion pls?
Also +1 for this suggestion, we need submarines and aircraft carriers in naval
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Yeah I had pretty much the same idea as this for carriers (but at higher BR) but that one haven’t got approved yet. Hopefully I can get it up soon so it’s tied together nicely.
Update: Looks like I have to combine that suggestion with Bombe18’s existing carrier thread. Be sure to check it out there!
I think subs could be great in EC too. But not as regular battles, they are too slow for this.
And sub shouldnt have guided torpedoes
Yeah, I did think of that, although I figured it being on the lower BR range should help with that since the maps in that range generally are smaller.
Submarines should be a normal tree.
Combine boat and large ship trees, and instead of increasing the BR of destroyers, revise the BR of battleships and cruisers, and allow each ship type to be researched in parallel, like on land, light tank line, medium tank line, heavy tank line.
Currently naval battles force battleships = high BR and therefore the top of the tree, so beginners are forced to fight battleships with lower ship classes (e.g. cruisers).
With the introduction of submarines, the value of destroyers and submarine chasers will increase and the value of battleships will decrease, so the BR standard should eventually become proportional to the era.
Therefore, by integrating the boat trees, we will avoid the situation where modern frigates, which will increase in number in the future, have a lower BR than early war destroyers.
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While having a true combined fleet would indeed allow the viability of submarines to be a tech tree vehicle, the problem this faces is something I’ve described in length multiple times before: the thing that determines the combat encounter in Naval will always be the ship with the heaviest firepower. It doesn’t have the nuances of objectives like on air, nor can a lone destroyer capable of dealing any notable damage to the battleship like a light tank can against heavy tanks on ground. You have torpedoes to level the playing field, but unless your target is a clueless player who sails straight all match, the effective range for your torpedo spread is around a single-digit kilometres away, well within the effective range of battleship guns. So this would mean that anyone who would spawn as sub-chasers/destroyers/cruisers to go submarine hunting will ultimately be the first to die against battleship spawns on the simple reason that they are easy to kill - long before they can detect, nevermind intercept, some slow moving submarine that would become a threat from mid-game going forward. You can witness this first hand if you go to 6.0-7.0 Naval Arcade and watch all those Gaijin bots in destroyers and the like be utterly wiped by player-controlled heavy cruisers and battleships.
There’s no use in having IRL comparisons because IRL operates a limited assets and teamwork. In a given fleet, there might be three or so battleships surrounded by many escort ships. In War Thunder’s current spawn implementation? On an optimum match, you will have over a dozen battleships, and each one of those can respawn at a maximum of three times. As for teamwork…it’s an exceedingly rare thing, so I won’t even take it into the equation right now.
All in all, while your solution would work in the event that Gaijin chose to drastically restructure Naval again for parallel development, I doubt it will happen due to the above issues. With that in mind, the implementation of subs that I bring here is to seamlessly integrate it into the current layout.
Rewards could be reworked that the bigger the ship class, the higher the reward, so Destroyers and smaller might be ignored more often giving them a chance, while makin Scharnhorst painful to play due to being focused
I think the desire for points would be overcome by the sheer need to get a kill in. Like, why do people complain about kill-stealing when you net more points from landing hits over time? (I believe this is still the case? I have to test this out at some point.) Because that dopamine of getting a kill is there. So you can either spend the next ten minutes lobbing shots at Scharnhorst and risk it noticing you and slamming shells into you in turn, or spend that time getting kills in minutes from the destroyers that are nearby and would torp you if you ignore them.
If you want a true combined arms game mode, it might have to take a page from air battles and everyone gets one life per match, and there will be a fixed amount of certain vehicle classes per team. Throw in some unrealistic visibility mechanics to prevent the smaller ships from being spotted straight from the start (which is a map design problem, I won’t go into it right now) and…well, we have accidentally recreated World of Warships.
By using dedicated spawn locations for submarines and giving each ship type additional rewards depending on the target, we reduce the incentive for larger ships to go after smaller ships.
For example, battleships are maximized for sinking battleships, and have half or no bonus for sinking light cruisers or smaller.
Destroyers are maximized by battleships or submarines, and cruisers are maximized by destroyers and battleships.
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A dedicated submarine spawn is a given, yeah, but for the other idea, yeah that’s what Admiral Pieter raised as a possible solution here. As a counter, I raised that WT players aren’t driven by scores (well, unless scores are explicitly what they seek, like in the case with events and the like), but rather by kill validation.
Additionally, if destroyers can get full points against battleships (not saying that they shouldn’t, if they managed to kill a battleship they deserve it), that would mean that battleships are incentivized to spend a little bit of time shooting at destroyers and the like out of self-defense before they get within effective torpedo range. This leaves the only way to stop people from seal clubbing the lower BRs being some kind of personal honor system. You can kind of experience a lighter version of this at BR 3.3 where you meet the transition from lighter speedboats and heavy-hitting but slow sub-chasers against (often relatively modern) frigates that would utterly slap the other two out of the water in a few volleys or secondary armament set to shoot at surface targets. I personally will tell everyone that “I won’t shoot at the smaller boats unless they shot me first”, but you can’t expect WT players to follow this mentality by default, cause they are happier the higher their kill count numbers are.
Do you attack only lower-ranked enemies to earn kills and get less actual score and rewards, or attack targets set for your ship type or higher-ranked enemies and get fewer kills but normal or bonus rewards?
I think this is very important.
One of the complaints I often hear from the navy is that battleships ignore battleships and only attack cruisers and destroyers, making beginners feel bad.
I think this proposal will solve that problem too.
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This is why we need naval to be enduring confrontation with MANY different classes of vehicles on the field. EC should be expanded to cover all vehicle types and BRs as well as available in simulator.
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Submarines shouldn’t be removed from the match.
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Submarines should not be the exclusive vehicle like drones or the nuclear bomb because as it happens with the plane with the nuke you would not reach the enemy to attack with torpedoes in time due to its slowness and high risk of being detected, I think you should be able to go out first with the submarine but that it costs approximately 90% so that if you do nothing with that class of ship you cannot go out again or at least you can only take out a coastal boat, that way there will be people who decide to take out another ship so that the game is not filled with them
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I also support the idea of points for smaller ships to larger ones. In real life, the number of tonnage sunk was awarded, not the number of ships. In the case of submarines, shooting down an aircraft was not rewarded, but the tonnage sunk was, especially for merchant ships and not so much for destroyers. Apart from this idea of points to avoid small ships being annihilated 2 minutes into the game, I think it would not be a bad idea to add a series of missions for each type of ship, either as a team or alone, to additionally reward them so that there is a minimum of teamwork.
The problem that I’m trying to solve that advise against submarines being a tech tree vehicle is that there exists a BR where there is no counterplay against them. But I do agree that subs are slow underwater and will not be fun to play usually or at least be unable to contribute meaningfully to the match by the time they get to the action. But I wonder if this is somewhat avoided by subs in my current idea being restricted to smaller early BR maps?
As for your idea of points to incentivize people to destroy ideal targets… I’ve heard the idea before but unfortunately, outside of event period, I don’t think people care much about mission scores over just the dopamine hit of destroying a target, so softer targets will always end up being the first to die anyway.
They should go to top tier. Not removed in any match. This would be realistic because some ships had to defend against subs and didnt have equipment to do that.
I’m not sure I follow. I suggest not placing it on top tier precisely because there aren’t ships with equipment to defend against subs. The ship class with depth charges are largely concentrated in the destroyers to cruisers range.
Unless you are suggesting for the implementation of vehicles that have no counter against them into the match for realism reasons? Because in that case, IRL often gets around this by having dedicated submarine hunt groups, which isn’t viable in-game for survivability reasons as mentioned (also is reliant on your teammates to be a team player, which is an optimistic at best when it comes to this game)
EC should be the primary Naval mode and submarines would flourish there just fine.