Spähpanzer 2 Luchs A2, Scout/ Light tank

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1
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Hello, I want to bring attention to a vehicle that could be added to the game the Spähpanzer 2 Luchs. A German light tank/scout developed in the Cold War around 1964-1973 to replace the M41 Walker Bulldog and Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz. It was produced between 1975–1977 with a total of 408 being built and used by the West German army. The vehicle was used from 1975 to 2009 when it was retired!
Luchs A2

This vehicle would operate very similarly to the already existing Type 87 RCV (P) It has the same armament that being the 20mm just different models specifically the Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202, which is fully stabilized, has a dual feed system, and the gun has an elevation range of -15° to +69°. Two versions were made A1 and A2 variants. The biggest improvement among the two is the A2 had the addition of thermal imaging for better fighting capabilities at night. Additionally, the Luchs is a fully amphibious vehicle able to reach a maximum speed of 10km an hour in the water. While reaching a max speed of 90km/h on roads, with its Daimler-Benz OM 403 VA flex-fuel V10 engine. Something interesting to note os the vehicle can take both petrol and diesel giving the engine different outputs, 390hp for diesel and 300hp for petrol. The vehicle was designed to protect against 20mm DM 43 from the front while the sides are bulletproof from 7.62mm. Giving the vehicle a total weight of 20 tons giving it a Power-to-weight ratio (h.p./t) of 20 for the diesel option.

Luchs A1
This is the A1 variant distinguished by its infra-red searchlight

In-Game:
I think this would be a great addition to the German tech tree as it would add a different playstyle and could bolster their 7.7 or 8.0 lineup. It would act as a scout that would be able to easily get around the map and scout targets out. While also being able to deal with low-hanging helicopters and aircraft with its 20mm main armament and 7,62 secondary.

Specifications:
Armament :
Primary: Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202 cannon
Cartridge: 20mm

Ammo Types
  • DM43A1: a 111 g incendiary armor-piercing shell with an initial speed of 1,100 m/s.
  • DM48A1: a 120 g practice ammunition with an initial velocity of 1,045 m/s.
  • DM51A2: a 120 g high explosive fragmentation shell with an initial speed of 1,045 m/s.
  • DM63: an under-calibrated armor-piercing shell with a detachable sabot weighing 108 g with an initial speed of 1,150 m/s. This ammunition came into supply at the end of the 1980s.
  • DM78A1: a 120 g disintegrating practice ammunition with an initial velocity of 1,045 m/s. To reduce its range on the firing range, it disintegrates after traveling a certain distance.
  • DM81: a 120 g high explosive fragmentation shell with an initial velocity of 1,045 m/s.

Feed System:
dual feed belt system and the empty cartridge cases and belt links are ejected externally to the right of the turret.
Elevation/Depression: -15° to +69°
Roof-mounted: 7.62mm MG3 Machine Gun

Maneuverability:
Engine: 390hp Daimler-Benz OM 403 VA flex-fuel V10
Transmission: ZF 4 PW 95 H (4-Forward, 4-Reverse)
Chassis: hydraulic all (8) wheel drive
Max Speed: 90km/h

Dimensions:
Length: 7.743m
Width: 2.980m
Height: 2.905m
Weight: 20 tons

Crew (4x):
Commander
Gunner
Driver
rear Driver

Accessories:
8x76 mm Smoke Grenade Launchers
Two propellers allow for amphibious maneuverability
2 plane stabilization
NVD:
Gunner: Thermal Imager

Sources:

http://panzerbaer.de/types/bw_spaehpz_2_luchs-a1.htm
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/ulrich_wrede/spahpanzer_2_prototype/

Spoiler

A2
A21059×748 154 KB

A1

Engine

Front

Side

20 Likes
2

A really cool vehicle that I didn’t know about. Love that 70s technology.
I wonder where in the tree it would end up since the light tank branch is pretty fleshed out at 7.7+. I wouldn’t mind if it ended up similarly to the Wiesel, as an SPAA but with light tank scouting ability. And unlockable just after the Wiesel in the tree but with more of the ammo options you provided and thermals. I think that would set it apart quite nicely.

+1

3 Likes
3

Hope the prototype of the Luchs is added aswell at a lower br at 5.7 without dm63 and thermals.

1 Like
4

Definitely would be too low of a br especially if it is stabilized and it would still have NVDs, probably 6.3-6.7.

5

Night vision is useless at that br, because there are no night battles there. The prototype doesn’t have a stabilizer and even with one the R3 has one aswell and is 5.7. It would be just a bigger r3.

(The stabilizer was added later and even some production variants didn’t have them iirc)

2 Likes
6

NVDs will literally be useless at that BR since it would be physically impossible for it to get into a night battle. Hell, if Gaijin’s proposed night battle changes go through, NVDs would be useless for ALL Spähpanzer 2s because, not only would night battles be optional, the minimum BR for night battles would be 10.0. The only way you’d get any use out of them is if you drastically uptier your Spähpanzer 2 on purpose.

7

This vehicle is definitely missing. With the Type 87 RCV Prototype a similar vehicle is already in the game. So, it would be nice to finally see this vehicle in game, before yet more Leopard 2 variants are added.

I’d like to point out another special feature that I didn’t see mentioned here: like the Sdkfz 234, the Luchs has a rear driver and can drive full speed in either direction. With this comes a system for switching from 2 axle steering to 4 axle steering. At low speeds (I believe up to 30 km/h, but don’t quote me on that) the vehicle can be switched to 4 axle steering and as a result is very maneuverable. At higher speeds the vehicle automatically switches to 2 axle steering, as I understand. I have made a case on the old forums for making this system semi-automatic (give the player the option of 2 or 4 axle at low speeds and only force 2 axle at high speeds).

Also, the vehicle was famous for its silent operation. So much so that infantry received special instructions for trainings in which the Luchs would partake, since, as I understand it, getting crushed at night by a silent Luchs sneaking through the forest was a real possibility if you choose your resting place poorly.

Long story short, I think the famously silent engine should be represented in game, as should be the 2-/4-axle steering system. Also, I definitely want to see this vehicle in the regular German tech tree. It was the vehicle of the German Recon units for decades and has seen comparatively widespread service as opposed to most of the higher tier German vehicles.

4 Likes
8

Not to compete with, but to support the OP, I dug up my promotion of the Sppz 2 from the old forums and would like to add it here.

"As you may or may not know, the SpPz 2 Luchs has been suggested in 2017 and was submitted for consideration in 2017 and 2020. Since around 2020 it is listed as “considered” on the list of previously suggested vehicles. I think the success of the Type 87 ARV [update: and particularly the Type 87 ARV Prototype] in the Japanese tech tree validates the idea of a fast scout with a low caliber armament.

The purpose of this thread [was] to discuss specifics of the implementation of the SpPz 2 Luchs in War Thunder.

Vehicle specifications (brief) (|Loh2010| pp. 76, 79)

Speed: Land: 90 km/h - 96 km/h (sometimes quoted as 100 km/h), Water: ~ 10 km/h; 390 HP engine.

Turret armor: 26 / 11-26 / 13
Hull armor: 11-23 / 6-10 / 7-10
([mm] front/side/rear)

Armament: Rheinmetall MK 20 mm RH 202, 20 mm auto cannon (already in the game on Wiesel and Marder), with dual feed system (|Loh2010| pp. 99).

Available Ammo: HEI-T, AP-T, APDS-T.

Standard loadout: 425x HEI-T + 75x AP-T. RoF: 1030/min

Specials :

  1. remarkably silent operation comparable to a regular car (|Loh2010| p. 135), (|DPM2018, t = 9 m 40 s|), (see also: Video).

  2. two axle / four axle steering depending on setting and speed (4 axle steering available up to 30 km/h |DPM2018, t = 9 m|).

  3. two drivers, same speed forward and reverse (see also SdKfz 234 series in the game) (|Loh2010| p. 76).

  4. amphibious (|Loh2010| pp. 76, 155-156).

Suggested placement in War Thunder Tech Tree: BR 7.7 - 8.3, depending on the variant.

Implementation in War Thunder

It is the “specials” mentioned before, which I would like to talk about in particular. I regard the implementation of at least some of these features as necessary to offset the sub-par 20 mm armament at BR 8.0.

1. Silent operation

The Luchs is the stuff of legends in the Bundeswehr and its NATO allies when it comes to its noise output. Warnings were issued for field exercises if the Luchs was going to take part. It was deemed plausible, that a prone soldier could easily be run over in the night without ever hearing it coming. Hence certain areas were off limits for soldiers when the Luchs was around. I’m sure Bundeswehr veterans will have more details on this.

The engine and exhaust system were remarkably well insulated, not only for reduced noise but also reduced thermal signature (exhaust heat exchanger).

With the current state of War Thunder sound assets, I wonder how this feature could be implemented. Suggestions are very welcome.

The reduced thermal signature for the engine bay and exhaust are probably the easiest to model.

2. Two axle / four axle steering
I think this one would require the introduction of a new key-binding. An automatic system based on vehicle speed would, in my opinion, lead to the vehicle not doing what you expected most of the time. Instead it would probably have to be semi-automatic where the player is able to choose either mode up to 30 km/h. Above that, the vehicle should automatically switch to two axle steering in the direction of travel.

3. Two Drivers

This is a feature of many vehicles in the game, which, to the best of my knowledge, has not been modeled. If the designated “driver” crew member is incapacitated, you are stuck, even if your vehicle actually has a second driver. Taking the Luchs as an example, I would argue the capabilities of a second driver should be modeled for all vehicles in the game which possess this feature.

4. Amphibious operation

It is often quoted that the Luchs lost its ability to swim when it was upgraded with the thermal imaging system, citing the increased weight as the reason. Nevertheless, I would argue that, based on the literature I have access to, any variant of the Luchs was capable of amphibious operations (see specifically |Loh2010| pp. 155-156). If you have additional sources on the topic, I’d be interested to read them.

With amphibious operation being of not much use in War Thunder, I’d regard its implementation as more of a matter of historical accuracy than anything else.

Looking forward to your opinions on, and suggestions for, how the SpPz 2 Luchs and its special features can be implemented in War Thunder.

Literature / Sources:

|Loh2010| Spaehpanzer Luchs, Hans-Peter Lohmann, Motorbuch Verlag, ISBN: 978-3-613-03162-3.

|DPM2018| “Geschichte(n) aus Stahl, Folge 6: Fluestern in der Nacht - der Luchs”, Deutsches Panzermuseum Munster, Video."

5 Likes
9

German BTR should not be Prem! Would be a really fun TT

3 Likes
10

+1 the Luchs is a fantastic example of a Cold War recce vehicle. Reconnaissance has long been ignored and is in need of overhaul in particular in higher tiers, where the Luchs’ contemporary recce vehicles are lacking for almost all factions.

2 Likes
11

+1 Should’ve been an inclusion to the BTR-80 update

2 Likes
12

I wonder what the reason is why this vehicle isn’t already in the game. Instead we have about 8 variants of the Leopard 2 in the German tech tree alone, which doesn’t count clones (south africa) and export vehicles (sweden). Not to mention the suggestions for yet more variants of MBTs with names so cryptic they sound made up.

I’m seriously hoping we are going to see an update that overhauls the scouting mechanics, strengthening the position of recon vehicles and allowing other play styles than just “go for the highest kill count”.

2 Likes
13

I dont mean to be rude or anything but what Leopard clones are ingame from south africa?

Do you perhaps mean the Vickers Mk.7 which is on a leo hull?

14

I like the idea of this as a scout vehicle. The Type 87 RCV (P) has very similar features and is already in the game, so I wouldn’t worry too much about whether it’s viable. It may not excel in the anti-tank department but it should be able to handily defeat other light vehicles and is nimble enough to scout out the battlefield with its thermals. +1

1 Like
15

Nah, add a version without thermals, stabilizer and maybe dm63 and put it at 5.X. Germany needs a light tank there. The sub1-2 and the amx10p are 5.3 and 5.7 with dm63 aswell and this thing is giant compared to the type 87 RCV

Luchs prototype

image
image1280×753 126 KB

1 Like
16

OK, so the base model Luchs then. This suggestion is about the Luchs A2. I say why not both?

1 Like
17

You are not being rude. I’m talking about the TTD (Tank Tech Demonstrator) which, while being South African in origin, borrows design features from the Leopard 2. It plays like a slightly downgraded version of the Leopard 2A4. Another vehicle I would point out in this context is the Type 90 in the Japanese tree, although that one is a bit more debatable.

Exactly. Although I would prefer the version with thermals at a higher BR (7.7 - 8.3 as explained in one of my previous posts).

2 Likes
18

I’d like to take the recent addition of another auto cannon scout vehicle (Fox - UK) as an opportunity to bring the Luchs back to the first page.

I am honestly puzzled at this point why the Luchs is not on the “Considered” list (anymore - it used to be on the old forums). Meanwhile Germany alone has at least 8 different flavours of Leopard 2.

I think what WT desperately needs are different Game Modes and allow for different play styles. For that, I feel, we will also need variety in the available vehicles. Driving the Type 87 RCV, and scouting for a team that appreciates it, is a lot of fun. Most importantly, it is a change of pace when your primary focus becomes sneaking and scouting (specifically because the armament is under par).

I wish every nation had a vehicle like that for the upper tiers. The Luchs is the obvious choice for Germany from the point of historical accuracy.

5 Likes
19

German BTR😂

20

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.