South African vehicles that could be made more accurate

South African vehicles in War Thunder are interesting, most are quite old in the game’s history but there are a few that need changing, whether that be a buff, a nerf or rebalancing.
Most of these are correcting inaccuracies.
The vehicles that I see need changing soon are:

  • Concept 3
  • Ratel 90
  • Ratel 20
  • Eland 90
  • Rooikat Mk.1D
  • Rooikat 105
  • Rooikat MTTD
  • Rooikat ZA 35
  • Olifant Mk.2
  • TTD

Starting with the Concept 3, it’s a decent light tank but not the most uptier proof as you have no other light tank until 6.3.
So I suggest giving it either APDS, a LRF or a CRF but raising its BR to 4.7. Now some of you might say “it didn’t use APDS during testing” or “South Africa never used APDS on their Comet tanks” but the Concept 1, 2 and 3 all used APDS to simulate what the naval gun would have looked like. Some might remember that the Concept 3 had a Laser Range Finder, now this might be a bit OP so they (Gaijin) could just give the Concept 3 a Coincidence Range Finder.

The Ratel 90 and Eland 90 don’t need major buffing from what I can see, but they do need to be made accurate. In War Thunder the Gunner loads the gun from Ready Racks behind his and Commanders waist, I have heard several Eland and Ratel crewman say that the Commander loads the gun from the actual Ready Racks in the rear of the turret (the rack behind the Gunner’s head and the centre rack behind the Commanders back). The Concept 3 has a similar problem where the rounds by the Loaders legs and main round storage at the back of the turret are the Ready Rounds, with the rounds by the Loaders legs being the 1st stage Ready Rack and the main round storage at the back of the turret are the Ready Rounds.

Next we have the Ratel 20, which really only has an incorrect reloading speed. the F2 auto cannon (in-game called the GI-2) was dual feed by 2 75rd. magazines and you can switch between the magazines in 2 seconds or less with the flip of a switch. So I say the reload should be 2 seconds and it’s at a BR where its cannon does little to most things it fights so this change would only be a good change.

Now we get onto the Rooikats, the Rooikat Mk.1D is over BRed with a long reload and weak gun, so to improve this we can decrease its BR and give it a 5 second Ace and 8 second stock reload. Britain has no real lineup at 8.7 and the Mk.1D is overshadowed by the Vickers Mk.11 which is at the same BR, better gun and same reload times, the Mk.1D may be more mobile but the Mk.11 has enough mobility to largely fill the Mk.1D’s roll.

The Rooikat 105, Rooikat MTTD and Olifant MK.2 only really need a better reload to remain competitive,
the Rooikat MTTD has an autoloader yet only 6.7 second reload, I’ve also seen many official docs that said it had a 5 sec reload. The Rooikat 105 is better than the MTTD in almost every way but I think it and the Olifant Mk.2 need a 6 second reload and the MTTD should stay at its BR to have somewhat of a lineup at 9.3. (I’m going to be making a suggestion for a replacement for the Rooikat 105 soon, so keep an eye out)

The Rooikat ZA 35 is pretty accurate but in War Thunder it uses optic searching when the radar is down whereas IRL it had a FLIR to help with target spotting and the Commander sight has NVD.

The TTD needs some of the biggest buffing. To start the TTD has armour that can’t even stop 3BM42 but it says in Xray view it has 600+ mm of armour protection on the turret and almost 500mm of armour on the hull, I’ve seen some reports of an estimated 750-800mm of kinetic protection yet it can’t even stop 3BM42 from the front. Next is the reload, it is painfully slow, compaired to its competitors (Leopard 2A4, T72, M1, Challenger Mk.2, Mk.3 etc.) with 8.7 second stock reload and 6.7 Aced is just pathetic so a 5-6 second reload is good Aced. Unfortunately the mobility can’t be buffed on the TTD but the Loggim (production tank from Project Loggim) is said have gotten a 1 400- 1 500hp engine but I don’t know much about that, also the autoloader was implemented on the Loggim’s design with the Loader still being kept as an extra crew member and as the backup loader.

That about sums up the things that need changing, as you can see it’s mostly ground vehicles but there aren’t enough aircraft yet to also include them.
I will also include updates for when things are changed.

Edit 1: For this “update” I wanted to also say that a few things I missed or didn’t know prior to creating this forum.

  • The Eland 90 and Ratel 90 could have a faster reload and a short rapid fire, for the faster reload it could (by good crews) fire 15-18 rounds per minute, the short rapid fire would be done mostly by the Commander who would hold 2 rounds between his legs and quickly put a new round in, fire and while firing the Commander get another round ready between his legs, load the gun, fire and repeat. Most cases IRL this would be a bad idea as you don’t want to quickly tire yourself out, but it’s possible, my uncle (who served as a Commander in the mid 80s on Elands) got good enough to do this for up to 10 rounds.

  • The Rooikat 105 currently in-game is from 2018 and should have 2nd Gen thermals. Originally I thought that the Rooikat 105 used the GS 65 and CS65 sights, then I found the GS72 and CS72 sights that looked similar to the Rooikat 105’s sights but still slightly different, so I found a sheet that said it used a later sight system but did not state what model. (I can’t find it again for this forum :(. I think the Rooikat 105 should get 2nd Gen thermal, 5-6 second ACE reload but be moved to 10.3 or 10.7.

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Well to start, none of the vehicles you mentioned need buffs. They’re all capable and balanced vehicles where they stand, especially the Olifant Mk2.

Laser range finder requires historical documents to prove it used them.
Same with ammunition.
Loading procedure is a historical report as well.

Britain has a strong lineup at 8.7, stronger than the Soviets.
Vickers Mk11 is also larger and less usable than the Rooikats.

Reloads are all fine with the only real complaint I have involving the 76mm guns.

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I don’t know why the Concept 3 had a LRF on the Ixwa Strike Dev server but it did, also my suggested buffs are to help it at 5.0+ without having to struggle and if you say I have a skill issue then your wrong, as it is my most play vehicle in WT.
One a side note; I am working on a suggestion for the Cheetah Mk.2 with APDS for the 5.3 lineup.

Edit: I also forgot to mention how useless the Ratel 20 is rn, with a decent time to kill at close range, little pen, massive size and ease to destroy

I can’t really see how giving the Concept 3 LRF would make it OP. It’s not an especially good light tank. Being a low tier sniper would make it unique.

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Agreed, it’s my most play vehicle and the optics, rangefinder nor muzzle velocity allow for a series sniping style and more a closeup knife sniper (in close combat but using sniper tactics), I also said a little OP cause some would say it would be super OP then.

Could the Ratel 20’s GI-2 cannon not use any sort of APDS Gaijin could add? If there isn’t any indigenous APDS round available I feel like it would be compatible with DM63 at the very least considering that the gun is a licence produced Modele F2.

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Technically it already has APDS but 57mm max pen at 6.7 is just…bruh

It should also have a faster reload, as it is dual fed when the on magazine runs out you switch to the other (IRL you would not likely do this as you always had 1 HE and 1 AP belt loaded at all times but in WT you will likely only have AP with you) and while you’re firing the 2nd belt, the 1st belt can be reloaded. I recommended a 2 second reload for this

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Post a document showing it had one.

The main thing is that light tanks aren’t meant to toast enemy tanks. They’re support vehicles. I know some light tanks can absolutely pound enemy mbts but that doesn’t mean every light tank should be able too. Light tanks are basically your fire and run tank. You don’t want to be in a slugging match with an mbt if you’re driving a light tank and I think that is the main reason light tanks don’t do well.

I see a lot of players trying to one on one a mbt in the open and that’s suicide nine times out of ten. While these specific light tanks might seem lack luster I think it’s more because of the way they are being used. I have seen light tanks turn the tide of a battle by simply scouting targets. If people use the light tanks for scouting instead of trying to get kills you will normally end up with both kills and assists which is more what they are for. Kinda a multi-role vehicle.

Poke the enemy if they don’t know where you’re shooting from but if they know where you are simply run to somewhere else. Of course that doesn’t work all the time but most of the time you can out pace enemy vehicles. That’s where your mobility really shines. Mobility is great for being first on the confrontation but it doesn’t help unless you can use it to out maneuver enemy vehicles.

It’s the usage that is being applied not the vehicle, I think.

Doesn’t it currently use HVAP? It’s only known as “AP” ingame which is what Gaijin tends to call 20mm HVAP.

heard the ratel 90 is pretty stinky though

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It isn’t. Both the ratels are quite good, they just need their own specific playstyles, they were some of my favourites when grinding the british tree.

As a South African, they are pretty accurate to what they were and is.

Ratel 20 and the round switching between the two boxes is the only I can agree with as realistically - Release trigger > flick switch > fire. Less than 2 seconds to switch round. You could also load both boxes with the same ammo.

Rooikat lacks traction and speed uphill but I guess that is a game balance thing.

TTD has got some THICC turret cheeks and if used right, almost nothing pens it at BR. Keep your hull hidden and you are perfectly fine.

The Olifant in game is basically about as accurate as it gets. They were always used at long range and hardly ever saw the front line. The first variants were plagued with issues though we never really cared for tanks as it is not in our doctrine - we fight in bush through Africa, we preference mobility.

Here, have a low phone quality pic of the Rooikat trying to get stuck in mud in 2008. MAN was supposed to show its recovery capabilities on its new recovery truck but ye, chosen vehicle to recover just wouldn’t get stuck.
rooikat

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No lineup is stronger than the sweden 8.7 and russian 8.7 lineup

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lol Soviet 8.7 is at best as good as Britain’s 8.7 lineup, in reality Britain’s is stronger due to far more options.
France, Sweden, and Israel all have stronger 8.7 lineups than Soviets, and have for years.

Britain:
MBT Type 1: Chieftain Mk3/5 [equal to T-55s].
MBT Type 2: Olifant Mk1.
Light wheeled vehicle tall with strong APFSDS: Vickers Mk11.
Light wheeled vehicle smaller: Rooikat.
IFV: Warrior.
ATGM slingers: Striker and ZT3A2.

That’s 6 unique types, with 8 options available.
Scimitar for multi-role if you want.

Soviets:
MBTs whose best round is slightly worse than Britain’s APDS rounds: T-55AMD, Object 435, T-62 [slow reload].
Light tank: Object 685 firing a round worse than Rooikat.
IFV: BMP-2.
ATGM: IT-1 & Shturm-S.

4 vehicle types for 7 options available.
There are no wheeled vehicles, there are no other types of MBTs. No Olifant Mk1 for more pen. You get the same pen across all the MBTs… you just choose your reload speed if you want 100mm reload speed or 115.

For Soviets to get a round as good as Olifants they need to play 9.0 or higher.
Of course, the same goes for if you want armor + that pen for Britain with Chieftain Mk10.

I think the Concept 3 is fine at where it is, maybe give it a CRF and move it up to 4.7, but I think that would cause more harm than good.

Agreed. It should have stayed at 8.3, or stay at the same BR as the Mk.11, but have a 6.0s reload (maybe 5s reload) instead.

All three of these vehicles are mostly fine at where they are.
I can see maybe the Rooikat 105 getting a slightly better reload (maybe 6.0s), but the Rooikat MTTD and Olifant Mk.2 doesn’t need the reload buff.

Rooikat MTTD is quite fast with ESS + thermals + DM33 at 9.3, which is fine.
Look at the TAM 2IP, which doesn’t get thermals nor ESS, but gets better armour and better reverse speed to compensate.

Olifant Mk.2 gets one of the best rounds at 9.3, which is DM63.
Not only does it penetrate more than DM33, but it spalls even more than DM23 (which spalls better than DM33 from my experience).

This, along with the good reverse speed, good gun depression, 6.7s reload (which is average for the BR), good turret armour (as long as you’re showing only the top portion in a hull-down position), as well as the ESS + Gen 2 thermals combo, makes it a really competitive vehicle at 9.3 that does not need to be touched.

The T-72A, for example, only really has firepower and armour to offer, which armour is useless against DM63, even sometimes DM33. Everything else, the Olifant Mk.2 excels at over the T-72A. The only reason why I’d choose the T-72A over the Olifant Mk.2 is if I am facing a complete downtier on an urban map, where the UFP of the T-72A is actually usable.

Sure.

3BM42 is one of the best rounds at around 10.3, so it not being able to stop 105mm DM33 / 120mm DM23 / M774 would be more concerning, which (from what I can remember) it can do so somewhat effectively.

Agreed. The 2AV should have been moved up to 10.3, as it gets 105mm DM33 with a 6s reload, and pretty good armour and mobility. The TTD is like the 2AV, but gets DM63 and thermals + ESS instead of DM33, but gets a worse reload, slightly worse armour, and worse mobility.

If the 2AV is still fine at 10.0 (which I doubt), then the TTD should get a 6.0s reload to be reasonably 0.3 BR higher.

I agree with a lot of this, though could we instead add Concept 1 and 2 with APDS and LRF? One could be TT and the other a premium. Concept 3 is a great 4.3 vehicle, I’d hate to see it go up.

I would prefer Cheetah Mk.2 as (from the info I’ve seen) got a better round and had an experimental LRF (no one knows what quality but I have heard it was for a Rooikat that would enter service from the first batch or early second batch)

What’s the sources on the Concepts getting a LRF? Do we know what gunners periscope it mounted?

No, the Concept 3 didn’t have a LRF as far as I know but did have on the Dev server it was added. The Cheetah Mk.2 had better optics, round and LRF