The UK would probably only use CAMM-MR on mainland UK batteries as part of the JORN Anti-ballistic-missile radars we intend to purchase from the Australians.
It could also potentially be used on warships as an ASTER-30 alternative, though I expect the PoK against manoeuvring targets to be lower, and for pure range the Franco-British alternative to SM-6 (RJ-15) would be best.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, I only watched the zenturion dev stream summary video, but I feel like GB has been shafted again:
Out of the 3 new AAs, CAMM ER is the slowest, 1550 m/s Buk, 1500 Aster, 1028 CAMM ER, thats 2/3 the speed,
additionally its the lowest range - I know everything is in range but longer range missiles will have more energy at distance, especially considering the speed difference above.
But my main concern is the launch method and warhead, the CAMM ER has the smallest warhead, and it also cold launches (gets pushed out, turns to its target and only then activates its motor). Firstly, the cold launch further reduces the range (and energy at distance) by forcing the missile to go through thicker air, but as if that wasnt enough the missiles are all ARH.
By cold launching AND having the smallest warhead, sky sabre is going to be easiest to defeat via multipath (coming horizontally rather than firing upward and coming down and not having enough TNT for splash damage), whereas Buk has a massive warhead and might be able to splash upward, and Aster launches upward, at least at closer ranges it’ll be attacking top-down, having a higher chance of negating multipath.
So it’s the slowest missile, shortest range, easiest to kinematically defeat as it doesnt go up to high altitude thin air, easiest to multipath and defeat with terrain thanks to its flight profile and having the smallest warhead out of all 3.
If I’ve gotten something wrong please tell as I’d very much like to regain hope.
True, CAMM-MR is likely to have longer range than the Giraffe radar variant used in the Land Ceptor (stated as “over 100 km”, but from my calculations it seems possible to achieve up to 150-170 km). And as for the game you’re right here, I see.
I think you’re right on this, I remember asking some people on the British side of Twitter, some that can be considered as sources on the topic, and they said more less the same thing as above - there are no official announcements on this, but there are different options under consideration.
I don’t think CAMM-MR would be a good ABM missile, as at least from the Polish side it’s supposed to be the low cost missile for our MRAD, complementing the PAC-3 MSE, kind of a PAC-2 GEM-T equivalent. So no attitude control thrusters like in the PAC-3 MSE or the Asters, and thus no extreme maneuverability.
Idk how it works in the game, but irl both CAMM variants should launch more upwards if the target is far enough, and then fly to the target from above:
Thanks for the info, while its reassuring to know that at least the range shouldn’t be gimped, the rest of the issues remain.
Also, I say shouldn’t because in the trailer for sky sabre in its dev blog you can see the missile doesn’t go up like you said, maybe they were firing it at a low target (i hope)
Probably underperforming
Kinematically yes, but I think the radars limit the others.being added this major. So long as we can engage out to 30km, I’m not too worried
Shouldn’t be
Gunna argue MP removal from the SAMs
Might be reportable and tweaked
I’m not worried. Nothing can be worse than Rapier
Yea, it shouldn’t, cold launch is an advantage if anything. Though keep in mind that all the three SAM systems there are in different categories (at least according to the NATO classification) - CAMM and CAMM-ER are SHORAD (10-50 km), 9M317 is MRAD (50-100 km) and Aster 30 is not just LRAD (>100 km), but it’s also BMD capable, an equivalent to the PAC-3 MSE missile. So the CAMM-ER being the least capable of these three is not really surprising, I’d say that the Aster 30 being added should be a bigger surprise:)
I cant find anything about an RJ 15 missile, did you misspell or could you link info?
Idk if he is talking about tp-15 and rj-10 from FC/ASW program but those are not sm6 alternative ?
It’s RJ-10 with its partner missile being called, TJ15 I got the two confused, both are part of the Franco-British Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon (FC/ASW) programme. RJ-10 is intended to be a dual purpose hypersonic weapon for both anti-ship and long range anti-air duties such as anti AWACS and Tankers. This is closest compared to the American SM-6, but better (as it’s newer).
TJ15 is a more traditional approach to the Franco-British Storm Shadow/SCALP as its replacement basically doing everything that missile does but is better and is VLS capable. (VLO, subsonic, high accuracy, independent targeting and ultra-long-range).
The RJ-10 is quite a close alternative but more of a natural evolution. Higher range, hypersonic, high agility, and intended as a dual purpose missile, will remain to be seen if it goes all the way with ABM defence like SM-6 but excluding that SM-6 is the closest in role missile that I can think of in a western navy.
That said for ABM defence it may struggle as Ramjets require air in some form.
As far as I know there was never a specification for RJ-10 to have the ability to intercept ballistic missiles and the Air-to-Air ability turned up as more of a useful side effect more than anything.
Which is why I don’t think it should be compared to the CAMM-MR though, as it’s supposed to be shorter range and not designed for BMD. Its closest equivalent is the SM-2MR I thing, mainly because a dual pack for it was also considered at some point, so CAMM-MR’s dimensions (and thus also performance) should be similar to that of the SM-2MR.
There’s an intended dual-purpose mode for the RJ-10 now as also long range A2A missile against HVAA’s (High value Airborne Assets)
MBDA representatives have even said that the acronym FC/ASW isn’t really suitable anymore but nevertheless that’s what the programme is called.
On ABM that’s my assumption that it might have some utility, but on that note, its a Ramjet, so maybe not as the second it gets to 100,000 feet there’s not much thrust. ASTER 30 was also not primarily an ABM capable missile.
That’s a more fair comparison yes.
Yeah, fair enough. I definetly think it will only ever be used in the “Big Stick” A2A role however as there’s plenty of other, more mature, ABM missiles out there.
