Significant inaccuracy for early british air to air missles

The british early air to air missles (Firestreak, Red Top) are by far the most historicly inacurate missles in the game. The Red Top esspecially. It should have the range between an AIM 9G and the russian R-23T. However the Red Top doesnt have anywhere near that range and I know why: the missles acceleration is far to low and short. In the game the missle reaches about Mach 1.5 which is just a joke to the mentioned Mach 3.2-3.5 in british military reports. The seaker should be able to lock afterburning aircraft in all aspects within a range of about 2-3 km due to heat created by aerodynamic friction. The seaker, although partialy side aspect does also not achieve this. The Firestreak is also very underpowerd. Although in reality significantly worse than the Red Top which was even thought of being armed on the F4 Phantom-IIs, instead of the Aim-9s jsut shows how powerfull they where. The firestreaks main problem is also the rocket-motors performance. It should be able to be fired at ranges suitable for the Aim-9E/K/J/P versions. The most accurate is the israeli Shafrir-2 range and seeker performance. By now I wasnt able to do research on the Fireflash which is why I am not able to give any statements for this missle`s performance.

Given the fact that the aircraft that are able to use these missles are at a BR in which such a significant change would create a massive balance issue I would suggest to move the Vixen and the Javelin up to a BR of 9.3 and the Lightning up to 9.7/10.0. These missles al though really powerfull for their time would share their place at this BR with the AIM-9G and the R-60. This is an acceptable balance from my point of view because after all Red Top and Firestreak are limited to 16/15 G. You are able to out manouver them, especially the Firestreak.

After all it will matter if they are changed and if how. Thanks in advance for your attention and reading span!

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The Red Top is definitely underperforming in gamy ways (range and seeker especially) but I wouldn’t get your hopes up for that kind of performance. The rear aspect range at low altitude was not very good in real life. It was designed for high altitude engagements against bombers and wasn’t particularly well suited for low altitude use.

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You are right here but it would still get a massive buff even for low altitude,rear-aspekt engagements. On high altitudes however it comes actually close to what I typed. It will have superior range than an AIM-9G
at high altitudes because of less air resistance.

I would say at least +60% range in a rear aspect launch at low altitude and a massive increase of acceleration at higher altitudes. It should reach Mach 3 while beeing fired at Mach 1 at about 6,5km

image

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AIM-9G has near 3x the range of Redtop at sea level in rear aspect;

Spoiler

Redtop;

Spoiler

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At most it’s missing 33% of its range:

Also the issue with Red Top is the amount of drag (if anything the motor is slightly over performing). So the largest range improvements are at low altitude where the air is thicker.

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missing 1/3 of its range means it should get 50% more range than its current state in game

On the document you can see the insane angle at which the Red Top should be able to be fired. This is a massive difference from what is in game.

I meant at high altitude, when the Red Top can reach Mach 3+

Besides that its burntime got even more reduced with the latest patch.

I mean it would still be worse than AIM-9G at all altitudes (aside from seeker performance) . We have reports for all the issues with Redtop (there are alot) but it will never be as good as AIM-9G in kinematics.

  • Currently, Red Top’s uncage limit is ±20°. This is incorrect, according to the Lightning F.53 Pilots Notes the Red Top’s uncage limit is ±30°. Buff

  • Currently in game, Red Top’s pre launch FOV is 4 degree, this is incorrect. According to Lighting F53 pilot’s notes: “After launch warning causes the homing eye to carry out a circular scan of approximately 1 degree radius” Buff

  • The rear aspect launch range of the Red Top missile is currently underperforming at all altitudes. This is especially true at low altitude where the Red Top is missing about 1/3 (33%) of it’s historical launch range. Buff

  • Currently, Red Top Missile has 16g lateral acceleration. But this is incorrect, according to the Lightning F.53 Pilots Notes, Red Top’s lateral acceleration is limited to 12g. Red Top’s 16g lateral acceleration is Dual Plane. (12√2=16) Nerf

  • Red Top has less than 10% of it’s historical front aspect range against front hemisphere supersonic / afterburning targets. Buff

  • According to AVIA 13-1320 Red Top Infra Red Homing Weapon For Fighter Aircraft - Mathematical Model the Red Top could be fired against a piston engined aircraft at a range of about 4.3 km at 20,000 ft altitude, or 6.3 km at 30,000 ft altitude. It must therefore be possible for the Red Top to lock on to a piston engined aircraft at a range of at least 6.3 km. Buff

  • Red Top should be able to hit a Buccaneer flying at Mach 0.9, when fired from a range of about 3.5 km, 30° off of head on (150° off the target’s tail). Buff

  • Redtop cannot hit a target in such condition unless at 0.9km from target. It is therefore having an operational range approx. 25% too short compared to expectation, at sea level Buff

  • Currently, Red Top’s missile guidance time is 40 seconds. This is incorrect, according to the Lightning F.53 Pilots Notes the Red Top’s missile guidance time is 30 seconds. Nerf

So its not all sunshine and rainbows, losing guidance duration and dropping to 12G manoeuvrability will suck. Rest will be great though.

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Make a thread in the dev server section and I’ll support it @YT_SLEYSY

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Why the dev server section? That place will disappear once the update comes out.

do you know by fact if the current burntime is historical accurate? It got shortend a bit. The Videos from Flame2512 show its old burntime. It is longer than the current one.

Did any of these ever get implemented?
I’ve also heard that the G limit was 16g (in some cases 20g) with motor but when that cuts it’s limited to 12g or similar

if its anything, I did notice the Red Top got a better gimball angle on the seeker & the seeker fov was tighter than it used to be.

Interested to see what exactly was changed since I must have missed it in the relevant patch notes. (the in game stat card still shows the old stats AFAIK)

That’s all I’ve noticed, I still can’t get locks head on against F104s etc, the missile still doesn’t go further than an asthmatic ant carrying heavy shopping

Not yet no.

Any idea of when or if
Or is that something you can’t say for one reason or another

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Don’t know at this time sorry.

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