Harrier 809 by Rowland White - (covers a lot of the war from the Argentine perspective too, very good read for a good picture of the air war from both sides)
So might not have been wide spread, but probably did originate from an Argentinian in some form
This is really interesting, it seems to be a Russian source however, I’m not going to say it didn’t have the dual rails either I’ll just do some more digging.
Matador w/ Dual Rails (Spanish service)
Whether its a Russian source or not doesn’t matter, its an image of the AV-8S.
If you do manage to find documentation, i’d love to see it though!
She defo had them, curious as to how they got them lol.
Anything else in the Spanish arsenal that used them?
I don’t want to derail the thread, the topic is genuinely interesting, but your claims are highly debatable. And not just by me, but by anyone who’s done even a bit of reading on the subject.
Only the Pucará could operate from the islands; the runway was far too short for anything else.
Argentina had no refueling capacity in the hot zone.
Missions flown from the mainland, even with external tanks and C-130 support, left jets with just minutes to strike and escape. We didn’t have Limas or CM, and even if an Argentine jet managed to score a kill from a favorable position, it likely wouldn’t have had the fuel to make it back.
One of the Shars greatest advantages was being a naval fighter, with VTOL capability, not to mention the logistics behind it. Argentina’s Navy was retiring its A-4Qs, most of which had cracked airframes, and their experience with the Super Étendards was still very limited. The Mirage III lacked surface attack capability and was best suited for A2A combat, but it did perform escort missions to the combat zone and back, acting as a decoy. Their priority was to defend the continent from the Vulcans, given that they were not naval aircraft and the distances from the theater of operations were not favorable to them. The Mirage III was used as an interceptor, while the other aircraft were employed in naval strike roles, although only the Super Étendard was truly designed for that purpose.
In that context, the most effective mission was targeting surface fleet assets. It was more worthwhile, and less suicidal, than engaging the Shars head on.
And while the Navy pilots performed admirably and bravely, it was the Air Force pilots who bore the brunt of the missions, despite never having trained for maritime combat or antiship operations.
Good luck with the fixes
PS. While not a widely known nickname, it’s true that some pilots referred to the SHar as black death, due to its lethality and dark paint.
It’s wild, but many believe some pilots preferred attacking the fleet at San Carlos directly, even with light attack aircraft like the Aermacchi, rather than face the Sea Harriers.
Then again, few would argue that either option was less suicidal than the other. At the end of the day, the pilots were just following orders.
again, the phrase doesn’t sound Argentine at all… it was only mentioned by the english along with other propaganda leaflets they dropped on the island. I’ve never heard or read any Argentine pilot using that phrase.
The Gr.3s didn’t even start showing up to the fight until much later after being shipped down on Atlantic conveyor.
And the Mirages fighting the Shars after some cat and mouse is a fact that has been confirmed by many.
I think he’s referring to Argentina Air Force
Well yeah they were the only argies at play.
The 5th of may never really left port.
He mentioned that Argentine Navy A-4’s were aging and cracked airframes
The only time they tried to attack from the carrier. There wasnt enough wind to take-off (ironic for the area) and so were forced to abort. (only if they had bought SHars)
Then Belgrano was sunk and they werent taking any chances so the A-4s were sent back to the mainland and conducted raids from there whilst the carrier and the bulk of the Argentine navy returned to port
They had about 6 in a semi-usable state. though most should have probably been grounded
As we have had some debate and discussion over the Sea Harriers effectiveness in air combat.
I felt it would be great to look into the Argentinian perspective of the matter.
It seems even the Argentinians viewed the Shar as a very very serious threat and outright stated that it was superior to the mirage 3 up to 25,000 feet.
I’ve heard the phrase too, but like I said earlier, Im pretty sure it wasnt something commonly used among the pilots. The video Moments of Valor: Argentina is based on fragments from the accounts of then capt. Pablo Carballo. But honestly, I’ve never heard him, or any other pilot, for that matter, actually use that nickname for the shars Still, we cant definitively say the phrase doesnt exist or that it was pure propaganda either.
By the way, I came across something interesting from Santiago Rivas, a well known and reliable argentine military researcher and author. (check the end of the post for the reference)
Its funny clearly the term existed, but its origin is still unclear.
According to Santiago Rivas, it might have been a misinterpretation by british radio operators of argentine pilots referring to the harrier as a “moscardón” (blowfly).
I´m not denying they were involved I’m just talking about what their actual mission was. The mirage III was an interceptor, meant for continental air defense, not for strike missions at ranges far beyond its capabilities.
To assess how effective the Mirage III could have been, you´d need to flip the scenario: send shars loaded with bombs and full drop tanks all the way to Buenos Aires, then see how well the mirage IIIs performed in their designed role, as interceptors.
Given the circumstances of the war, the comparison simply doesnt make sense. Its like trying to decide who was the better football player Paul Scholes or Harry Kane based solely on the number of goals they scored.
What I’m really pushing back on is those kinds of comments. Youre presenting the information in a way that, whether its out of ignorance or bad faith I honestly dont see how that helps the moderators fix the Harrier.
They literally came to fight the Shars with nothing but drop tanks and missiles.
In the first many battles they were not flying strike missions. There intent was to do exactly what they where made to do, intercept and fight.
I’m pretty sure that carrier couldnt even reach the operational top speed required for proper takeoffs. Under those conditions, not even hurricane force winds would get a fully loaded A4 off the deck.
Thats the sad truth. The people who fought, on both sides, are surely seen as heroes in their respective countries. In Argentina, though, the high command? Total bastards.
I think they were fine when sailing at full speed into head winds and in the south atlantic there is usually quite a bit of wind.
But they were in a pretty poor state iirc. Though cant blame them for going for the A-4s. I think they bought all of them for about the same price of 2 new SHars
