Rooftop machine guns turn too fast

It does because planes aren’t always directly above you. If an aircraft is flying low around 1km away from you, it doesn’t have to point above 25 degrees vertically to hit it. What a stupid thing to insinuate.

They aren’t perfect by any means, but this this MG “problem” has already been balanced out.

You don’t just take random parts of things for a quote, it’s bad writing. You quoting me to show what your replying to is the exact reason you should use the whole sentence and not change the quoted sentences grammar because it changes the meaning and can confuse others.

What range would they be zeroed to hit? Where would this adjustment be? Would it be trained at 0 degress x/y and be useless because they wouldn’t actually hit anything? It doesn’t make any sense to make that change because it would render them useless.

All of the other nations have 12.7mm rooftop HMGs and rifle caliber LMGs even though you think they don’t. You can try to deny that, but you’d just be wrong. Heres an example for you; the IS-2 can kill American light vehicles like the T92 because it has a 12.7mm rooftop HMG.

It’s baffling that you think I can’t understand something and disagree with it. I don’t agree with removing features from the game without good quantifyable reason to do so.

You want to explain to me how disabling rooftop MGs wouldn’t be different from removing them? An MG that doesn’t work is effectively removed because it can’t contribute to the fight.

I believe the answer your looking for is no.

These are some of the reasons I disagree with you. You don’t know how the weapons themselves are operated. You don’t know the difference of operating it from the cupola and operating it from outside the cupola. You don’t understand why a gun sitting at rest doesn’t mean it will be fired at that position. You don’t understand bullets can travel for long distances to engage aircraft. You don’t understand that helicopters and planes dont usually attack from 90 degrees above you. You have no idea about what nations do or don’t have rooftop machine guns. You have no idea why interwar and early WW2 tanks don’t have rooftop MGs. You don’t understand why so many US vehicles have the M2. Why would I ever take what you suggest seriously on this issue? Nothing you have tried to say could justify to me that rooftop machine guns make this game worse, but I have plenty of reasons why their existence makes the game better.

It does because planes aren’t always directly above you. If an aircraft is flying low around 1km away from you, it doesn’t have to point above 25 degrees vertically to hit it. What a stupid thing to insinuate.

Yeah, because I’m casually going to kill a plane from over 1km away with a 7.92mm.

take random parts of a quote, it’s writing.

Nothing was changed, and I’m discussing it with you and I’m sure you know what you said. If I’m quoting you in an entirely different location, sure, over here I don’t need posts to be any longer than they already are.

What range would they be zeroed to hit? Where would this adjustment be? Would it be trained at 0 degress x/y and be useless because they wouldn’t actually hit anything? It doesn’t make any sense to make that change because it would render them useless.

Just follow the main gun as it already does, if necessary with limited degrees.

All of the other nations have 12.7mm rooftop HMGs and rifle caliber LMGs even though you think they don’t. You can try to deny that, but you’d just be wrong.

The point is how many of them do, Germany has a singular one in the first 4 ranks I’m pretty sure and you try to pretend that is equal to what the US has because ‘‘they both have them’’.

The IS-2 can kill American light vehicles like the T92 because it has a 12.7mm rooftop HMG.

Yeah… one of maybe 5 or 6 at these ranks, with most of them on the SU and ISUs I believe which are hardly played.

I don’t agree with removing features from the game without good quantifyable reason to do so.

There isn’t a reason for them to be added in the first place.

You want to explain to me how disabling rooftop MGs wouldn’t be different from removing them? An MG that doesn’t work is effectively removed because it can’t contribute to the fight.

What is sarcasm? if your argument for having this feature is that it’s simpler for the devs, than not having them at all would make for an even stronger argument.

You don’t know how the weapons themselves are operated.

Clearly it’s either ghosts or magic, maybe pixie dust but that might also just count as magic.

Rooftop MGs don’t do that. Coaxial machine guns do that. Rooftop MGs have absolutely nothing to do with the gun’s trajectory or bearing. The only reason they turn side to side is because the entire turret moves and their mount doesn’t. You don’t understand how the weapons work, this makes it abundantly clear.

This is why I said you don’t know anything about what vehicles have them. Germany starts to get rooftop MGs at rank 2. I mentioned 2 already that have them at rank 2, the Panzer 3M and Panzer 4H.

That means that US isn’t the only nation that can kill light vehicles with MGs. Stop trying to bend the truth because you’re ignorant about the vehicles.

There is, Warthunder was an aircraft only game and added ground mixed battles in later. Aircraft stayed in ground mode after testing without them and it made sense that tanks would have operable rooftop MGs for air defense. So there is a reason, you’re just ignorant.

No I want you to explain how disabling rooftop MGs isn’t the same as removing them from a gameplay perspective. You said yourself that you didn’t say you wanted them removed, but disabling them effectively removes them from gameplay.

Here is where you tried to deny that you said your point wasn’t removing the rooftop MGs. Disabling their use is removing them from a gameplay perspective.

This is cherrypicking. You’ve demonstrated exactly what I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, you can. You can kill the pilot or set the fuel tanks alight with incendiary ammunition from a rifle caliber MG. Most planes have no armor, except bulletproof glass on the front glass of the cockpit. The rest is usually structural steel to make up the planes fuselage and can be penetrated by rifle caliber MGs. The British Spitfires have variants that use 7.7mm MGs and 20mm cannons, with the cannons having very limited ammo, you have to rely on rifle caliber MGs to kill planes. It can and has been done.

My arguement to keep them operable is for AA use, use against lighty armored vehicles, and for disabling tracks/modules on other vehicles. They are a very useful weapons in game, taking them away would be removing a good feature. Disabling them would take alot of effort for the devs seeing that it would be removing them from 100s of vehicles. Your argument that the US is unbalanced because they use .50 cals has already been balanced out in the brs, and every other nation gets their own version of the 12.7mm HMGs at some point. In other places, they usually have a rifle caliber MG, which still serves the purposes mentioned above just fine.

That’s what i’m telling you -->,fire from farther aways, but multiple times → no need to get close for FFAR/HVAR rockets,… could be fired from 5/6km away,… no problem → it’s about ballistics and spread of rockets.

Less accurate, but you’re safier as you don’t have to come accross MG fire (and it’s around 2.5km for 20mm MG rooftop)

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That’s not the operational range of the rocket in game or in real life.

The operational range of the HVAR extends well past 4.5km, and the Hydra can easily reach out to 8-10km.

Yeah tell me more about those Russian Ka and Mi-24 pointing out the sky → ballistics.

What?

Yes that’s against a stationary fixed position.

Yes, and the only difference between a stationary and moving target is lead

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Typical long range rocket shot → more than 10km.

I’m not asking you to 10km range shot with unguided rockets, yet, you should be able to have “ok” results from 4km away.

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Yes and it’s more accurate the less lead you need to compensate for.

“ukranian ground targets”

Fixed position. This was previously stated.

Your statistics?

Accuracy has no play in range.

Rooftop MGs don’t do that. Coaxial machine guns do that. Rooftop MGs have absolutely nothing to do with the gun’s trajectory or bearing. The only reason they turn side to side is because the entire turret moves and their mount doesn’t. You don’t understand how the weapons work, this makes it abundantly clear.

Yeah, it doesn’t do anything at all… clearly, just somehow is aiming at the same thing.

Germany starts to get rooftop MGs at rank 2. I mentioned 2 already that have them at rank 2, the Panzer 3M and Panzer 4H.

And none of that is about having .50s and the capabilities they have, Panzers MG gets 25 degree of elevation .50s often get double that and more than double the pen, it’s not the same thing.

That means that US isn’t the only nation that can kill light vehicles with MGs. Stop trying to bend the truth because you’re ignorant about the vehicles.

Says the person who constantly is misportraying the argument if not making up entire strawman.

Well this one vehicle can do it, so that’s equal to all the American tanks that can do it.

it made sense that tanks would have operable rooftop MGs for air defense. So there is a reason, you’re just ignorant.

Made sense for only a few nations to have it apparently.

No I want you to explain how disabling rooftop MGs isn’t the same as removing them from a gameplay perspective. You said yourself that you didn’t say you wanted them removed, but disabling them effectively removes them from gameplay.

Disabling or removing are both not being discussed here.

Yeah, you can. You can kill the pilot or set the fuel tanks alight with incendiary ammunition from a rifle caliber MG.

Yeah, all that incendiary in the 7.62.

image

It’s insane to even pretend that’s realistic, people can’t hit a plane with an SPAA from 500m and even hitting them with 20 or 30mm is only a hit, but you’re casually killing planes from over a km away with a 7.62mm.

Disabling them would take alot of effort for the devs seeing that it would be removing them.

Look, it’s your best friend.

image

Also fascinating how concerned you are for devs having to actual work in your made up scenario, imagine that.

and every other nation gets their own version of the 12.7mm HMGs at some point.

They do not.

Have been done for convoys,… have been done for moving infantry,… that tactic was used for pretty much every type of ground target within range.

I’ll take responsibility for this one. I expected you to know what happens in real life, but I didn’t spell that out for you. I would assume that you want them to operate as they do now, but not past the limits of the main guns firing arc. Is that correct?

I never said a .50 cal. I said a rooftop MG. The .50 is used as a rooftop MG, but not rooftop MG is a .50. Again, the MG34 isn’t on the same mount and has different characteristics than an M2, so they can be operated differently in real life. This translates to different characteristics in game.

If one vehicle can do it, then my argument is sound. The truth is that the US isn’t the only nation that can do it. All the nations can because they all have 12.7mm HMGs at some point in their tech tree. Never once did I say that an equal amount of vehicles have them, but you have tried to say that no other vehicles than the US have 12.7mm HMGs.

Again, rifle caliber machine guns are rooftop MGs, .50 cals are also rooftop MGs. You don’t seem to know the difference. All of the nations have rooftop MGs.

Then what are you trying to discuss? Earlier you said that the devs could just disable the MGs.

US - M2
Germany - M2, s.MG.50, NSVT
Russia - DShk, NSVT, 6P49, 6P50
Britain - M2, L21A1
Japan - M2, Type 60(b), DShk, Type 54, QJC88A
Italy - M2, NSVT
France - M2
Sweden - DShK, ksp88
Israel - M2, M85
Those are all of the 12.7mm HMGs that each nation gets. They do indeed all have 12.7mm HMGs.

I need you to provide me your ingame statistics so I can know that you’re arguing in good faith rather than coming from a place of complete ignorance in regards to helicopter performance.