Responding to Feedback on the Planned Battle Rating Changes April 2025

[Morvran]

@maguumo

I find it somewhat surprising that you seem to think that vehicles should be balanced by their actual ability instead of achieved match performance, while at the same time calling the current version of the Brimstone underperforming garbage because making that one work well requires a bit of effort.

I fired 4x Brismtones at a Pantsir in a GSB match yesterday and all 4 were shot down long before they even got close and I was forced into an extremely defensive posture. the enemy team had 3 active Pantsirs in total and the low cloud coverage prevented me from going high. I spent 15 minutes just staying at 25km distance from the map to avoid the enemy SPAA cover and just surpress any enemy fighters or helis the best I could from long range.

If there had been a Type 81, it would have died within the first 10 seconds with a single Brimstone and next to no effort from myself.

That is a simple fact. A Type 81 is hardly more of a threat than a Strela is at top tier and yet the Stela is not 11.7.

Given the sheer overwhelming performance of the KH-38MT and even the AASM, calling for the Typhoon to get the Brimstone variant IT ACTUALLY USED, even in a massively nerfed state of being limited to SAL-only i dont think is unreasonable. I know soviet mains are bad at the game and need fake weapons like the KH-38MT to do anything, but that is just a major skill issue. If you think an Su-30SM firing 6x KH-38MTs at a ADATS is equal to a Typhoon firing SAL-Only Brismtone 1s at Pantsir is the same then I deeply question your comprehension of what balance even is.

@maguumo

The Type 81 does well because the average top tier pilot has about one and a half braincells. The same thing stops SPAAs like the Pantsir, Tor or ItO from performing statistically as well as they should, you can actually use those wrong/badly, which many people do. It’s obvious which one should be better in the hands of a capable player, but Gaijin balances by the stats achieved by everyone.

Because players being bad with an OP vehicle or weapon system doesnt stop it being OP, especially when in the hands of anyone with half a brain cell. Balancing ONLY via player stats is stupid and results in more problems than it resolves

like for example just because people bought the Tornado WTD61 and brainlessly fly down the centre of the map towards bases and get killed by anything and everything because they have no idea what they are doing doesnt mean the WTD61 is worse than the Tornado GR1 flown by someone who actually knows how to defend and how to use the aircraft, despite the fact that objectively speaking, the Tornado GR1 is actually the weaker of the 2 (it is, has weaker engines) and so should be the higher BR because player stats says it should be better.

You can also see this within SB with the J34 (9.3) vs (French) Hunter F6 (9.0). The Hunter F6 is superior in every respect to the J34 with both a better engine and a different wing design that improves the FM greatly. There is under no circumstance a reason objectively for the Hunter F6 to be a lower BR than the J34 other than the fact the players in the J34 are simply better than the players flying the Hunter F6.

TLDR, Balancing by Player stats alone is a stupid way to do it. Take the Type 81. just because Japanese Mains are actually good and soviet players are bad, doesnt mean the Type 81 is vastly superior to the Pantsir.

[SolareHQ]

Uhm because! Don’t question it.

Same BR the A-5C was with 2 Magic 1’s after the decompression btw. This BR change is showing just how out of touch they’ve really become with the game. It’s been bad in the past but never have I seen so many feedbacks blatantly ignored.

[SolareHQ]

Not just higher than the Tor-M1, higher than the HQ17 as well, which has the second longest range missiles out of any SPAA in the game :D

[Master_Teaz]

@Stockholm_Blend

I can’t wait to see Spitfire LF Mk.IX on US TT goes down to 5.3BR while our/jewish one goes up to 6.0BR with no changes at all. :/

all LF.9s should ideally go to 6.0 providing other aircraft (Yak-3U, Yak-3 (VK-107), P-51H, etc) get their BRs changed too

[Morvran]

I know its good, but I hope not. 5.7 is a sweet spot where it avoids being dragged up into the hellscape that is early jets.

I largely dont touch 6.0+ for largely that reason.

[Ion_Protogen]

@GNDM_Panzer

BR they belong? Questionable, as they ought to go to 4.7 the way I see it.

They’re objectively worse than almost every 4.7, and are terrible against any 5.0, such as the Kv-85 or VK.3002. I’ve played the E and it’s OP at 4.0, but it will be useless at 4.7.

@GNDM_Panzer

Which nation benefits the most from the Type 81C getting uptiered again? Russia

All nations benefit from that except Japan. Less SPAA=More cas dominance, and Russia isn’t the nation that has the best CAS at all BRs. In fact the US 10.3 lineup benefits a lot from this, because one of it’s CAS aircraft (the A-7D) will no longer face the Type 81.

@GNDM_Panzer

Because it saves their lower end Frogfoots from getting slapped out of the sky

That can be said about any 10.3 CAS. Also, the Su-25, and Su-25K were already not in the range of it because they are 10.0. The Su-25T is 11.3, and will still continue to face it.

@GNDM_Panzer

Now it’s getting uptiered again because it was still slapping them out of the sky.

That’s not true, because it is able to kill more than just the frogfoots it couldn’t even face previously.

I still think it’s a weird change, but don’t blame it on Russian bias. There are other objectively bad changes too, and none of them benefits Russia. Blame Gaijin for being incompetent and relying too much on statistics, instead of blaming players who aren’t really a large group.

[SolareHQ]

Japan players beg for an SPAA to fill the gap for years
Finally get the Type 81C to use over the Type 93 especially with the 11.0 lineup
Gets moved to 11.3 and sits there with no lineup until a decompression literally months later
Decompression happens, has lineup again and all is well with it at 11.3
Gaijin moves it to 11.7

Great company

[Stockholm_Blend]

I am well aware that LF IX is good.

What I meant was

• In the Gaijin world, which P-47D-28/D-30 has a different BR, and B-26B/C had a different BR before
• Maybe if LF IX gets BR adjustment, Spitfire outside US TT gets nerf, while inside US TT one gets further buff.
  in a joke level.

Because Gaijin is clueless for their balancing :/

[GNDM_Panzer]

@MommyDommyEnjyr

SU-30s and KA50/52s

Those things actually get in range of your Type 81C? Damn, that’s crazy. I can’t even hope to touch them in mine. Between being outranged and broken Optical there’s nothing to do but die.

[Morvran]

Yeah KH-38MTs have to be used within 4km. didnt you know that? They definetly dont have super long range abilities. Just sounds like a skill issue :P

/s

[Tristacomand]

@MokaMoki

BR changes should involve a community vote

I vehemently oppose this. There is already enough blufor bias in many BR brackets of many game modes (not all)

I don’t want guys whose worldview and primary education comes from the History Channel and other slop to vote on BRs.

[SolareHQ]

It’s effective against aircraft in the BR range as well don’t get it twisted, but if there are any clouds or god forbid fog it becomes borderline unusable. The problem is people being in the targeting pod view while firing off AGM’s without even caring to look if there’s a missile coming since “I’m not getting an RWR ping so I must be safe!” or flaring once whilst continuing to fly in a straight line.

You want to know how easy it is to defeat this missile? Literally you can fly towards the ground and pull up at the last minute and the missile will just crash right into the ground. Or even easier, pay attention and flare the missile while actually doing evasive maneuvers

[GNDM_Panzer]

I’ll agree to disagree on the KV-1B/E matter.

No, The A-7D had to get very much within Type 81C range because the Mavs are quite trash. Russia benefits the most because the CAS spam is most prevalent with them.

Iirc the lowest Frogfoots are 10.3 in GRB, though frankly they ought to be 10.7 with those S-250s.

I’m gonna agree to disagree with you on the Russian Bias matter, but we all know very well of Gaijin’s massive and malicious incompetence.

[MokaMoki]

@MotorolaCRO

With all data being public, people could hand pick vehicles that seem the easiest to push up/down and try do it is as a challenge. I don’t really want some less played vehicles to suffer just because they aren’t as popular.

I did not say all data. If Gaijin is just balancing off player statistics, then thats what needs to be available. If you go back and reread what I said, I called for player efficiency number to be made publicly. This can easily be displayed via a percentage. And your argument actually supports my point. Why are they played less? Did Gaijin over or under correct something? Transparency is a win here.

@MotorolaCRO

General player base is already trusting them with balance, which is something that works in many other PvP games already.

But they aren’t here. Said frustration exists beyond this singular thread and War Thunder is chock full of balancing issues. Why hasn’t Gaijin addressed thr Pantsir balance? How many times does the player base have to bring it up before it finally gets addressed? Look at the divisiveness that came from the APHE rework? Gaijin was about to push through a test 52% of the respondent player base was against. Sure, they decided to not go through with it at the end, but it took a sizable portion of backlash to get to it. And Gaijin lost a sizable portion of trust doing so.

So no, there isnt enough of this “players are trusting” Gaijin. Especially not with BR changes. Hell, they got a sizable portion of players against the AMX-40 increase and their response was to screw over another vehicle with a half-hearted “heres a better round that we don’t know if it will improve the vehicle’s effectiveness”.

[GNDM_Panzer]

My poor Tam Sam be having the Skillest of Skill Issues for real.

[maguumo]

@Morvran_

I fired 4x Brismtones at a Pantsir in a GSB match yesterday and all 4 were shot down long before they even got close

That’s user error.

@Morvran_

the enemy team had 3 active Pantsirs in total and the low cloud coverage prevented me from going high.

Going high with Brimstones against SPAA only works against bots or people that are busy shooting something else.

@Morvran_

That is a simple fact. A Type 81 is hardly more of a threat than a Strela is at top tier and yet the Stela is not 11.7.

Eh, that’s a bit of a stretch. The Type 81s missiles are a good chunk better, but obviously the thing is still at too high a BR judged by its objective capability.

@Morvran_

Given the sheer overwhelming performance of the KH-38MT and even the AASM, calling for the Typhoon to get the Brimstone variant IT ACTUALLY USED, even in a massively nerfed state of being limited to SAL-only i dont think is unreasonable.

The Brimstone on the Typhoon is the go to weapon to knock out the Pantsir in squadronbattles. The KH-38 is not used by anyone competent there. The advantage of it, and other IIR guided weaponry, is being idiot proof (and being able to engage multiple targets at once, and allowing you to more effectively deal with other things immediately after firing).

@Morvran_

If you think an Su-30SM firing 6x KH-38MTs at a ADATS is equal to a Typhoon firing SAL-Only Brismtone 1s at Pantsir is the same then I deeply question your comprehension of what balance even is.

I didn’t say anything about the ADATS? I said that the Brimstone works very well for people that know what they’re doing, even against the best SPAA you can face.Top tier balancing obviously involves far more than isolated SPAA vs plane fights.

Either way, I just found it funny that you’re switching between wanting to judge vehicles by the performance they can achieve when used by someoen competent (Type 81 vs more capable radar SPAAs) and then discount the capabilities of an incredibly potent CAS weapon because making it work requires the user to do more than pressing lock and fire.

@Morvran_

Balancing by Player stats alone is a stupid way to do it.

I absolutely agree.

[MotorolaCRO]

@_Baum_

That is next to impossible to happen unless Gaijin balances exclusively along the K/D, which is an almost useless stat when it comes to vehicle balance as my 3K/D in the Conq proves. Just because I would rather end a match with 0 kills than to die does not mean that the Conq is suddenly a good vehicle.

It’s already been done before with one jet.
They balance the vehicles by income you make, which basically come from kills, assists, caps etc., so a bunch of really good people playing some forgotten vehicle no one plays anymore will definitely increase the perceived efficiency of said vehicle, thus making Gaijin to move it up.

@_Baum_

I mean we already know that Gaijin refuses to change BRs unless a certain amount of data has been gathered, so the “a minority could change it” is literally impossible as per Gaijins own rules on balancing.

Quote me where they’ve said that.
If a given vehicle has like 2k battles per month and now all of a sudden it gets 5-6k with highly increased efficiency, I’m sure it’d make Gaijin interested in that particular vehicle.

@_Baum_

The general playerbase is trusing with balanceing? Mate you are in this threat. Can you read? Go to reddit and see what the response is there.

Mate you need to realize this forum is just a very small part of our total player base, but I guess that’s too hard for you to wrap your head around.
Same goes for reddit so you better find me a better argument but I know you can’t.

[Tristacomand]

@MokaMoki

Transparency is a win here.

Really insane for me is that this company seems to think the solution is most often less transparency. Even small gains in transparency need to be celebrated like they’re some massive achievement and not simply the rolling back of absurd counterproductive regressive policy.

Actually, radical transparency is the solution more times than too much transparency is ever the problem and solves most of the issues Gaijin tries to solve by reducing transparency.

Very sad times.

[MokaMoki]

They were so quick to abandon the roadmaps. God forbid players be able to hold developers to promised improvements. But that is just it. Gaijin doesn’t want to do such a thing.

[Morvran]

@maguumo

That’s user error.

So what was I meant to do?

I targeted close to the Pantsirs position and fired all Brimstones I had then ducked into cover, with the intention of popping up and lasing them when they got close, but ALL were shot down before they even got that far.

Is that a skill issue? , is that user error? or is that the fact that Brismtone 1s are barely a 10.0 worthy weapon and there is no excuse for having Brimstone 1s on the Typhoon. Quite Frankly, given the KH-38MT there is little excuse why we cant have 6x FnF Brimstone 2s. But alas, Soviets have skill issues.

@maguumo

Going high with Brimstones against SPAA only works against bots or people that are busy shooting something else.

I couldnt go high because of cloud coverage but dropping PW4s from 50k feet is far easier in GSB than trying to do the awkward control dance between HOTAS and M&K to guide Brimstones, especially given they need to be fired well within range of a Pantsir to ever have a chance of hitting.

So I WAS hugging the deck, at about 300ft, hiding behind hills. All Brimstones were still intercepted before they even got close to the target. I was planning on landing, swaping from my usual 6x Brimstone + 6x PW4 loadout to an 18x Brismtone loadout, but I couldnt land because the 3x Pantsirs were in range and in LoS of the AF on that map and so I crashed trying to simutaneously defend against 3x Pantsirs and land at the same time in SB.

@maguumo

Eh, that’s a bit of a stretch. The Type 81s missiles are a good chunk better, but obviously the thing is still at too high a BR judged by its objective capability.

Perhaps, but in terms of range and usage, almost identical. There is little justification for it to be 11.7.

@maguumo

The Brimstone on the Typhoon is the go to weapon to knock out the Pantsir in squadronbattles. The KH-38 is not used by anyone competent there. The advantage of it, and other IIR guided weaponry, is being idiot proof (and being able to engage multiple targets at once, and allowing you to more effectively deal with other things immediately after firing).

I still do not understand why this is justification for why the Typhoon must have 2 MASSIVE A2G nerfs, but the SU-30 and Su-34 have fictional weapons.

And just because you can spam 18x Brimstones at a Pantsir that even it cannot defend against, doesnt mean that the Brimstones are good. Im sure if the F-15E got GPS+SAL GBU-53s it would instantly become the meta in that regard.

@maguumo

I didn’t say anything about the ADATS? I said that the Brimstone works very well for people that know what they’re doing, even against the best SPAA you can face.Top tier balancing obviously involves far more than isolated SPAA vs plane fights.

But it is relevant. If Typhoon with MASSIVE nerfs is considered balanced becuase it can kill a Pantsir then the fact the SU-39 can kill an ADATS with a Vikhrs just as easily must mean that the Su-39 and Typhoon are equal right? Because ADATS and Pantsir are practically the same BR.

@maguumo

I absolutely agree.

Then what are you complaing about then?

Type 81 moving up because Japanse mains are good and player stats says that its too good, but Pantsir remaining at 12.0 because soviet mains are bad and players stats says its bad, is just stupid and illogical.

Player stats should only be looked at when common sense or objective facts cant decide.