Different devs working on electronic warfare or radar modeling… also not a waste of time because @piiot found discrepancies worth reporting for certain range scenarios that matter more.
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There is no Mig-29 in War Thunder besides the SMT that is technically capable of using the R-27ER.
GJ knows this & why the R27ER was not provided in the Mig-29’s release in Update: Apex Predators.
R-27ER (AA-10C Alamo C) – a modification of the R-27R missile with the installation of a new rocket engine, which has a larger supply of solid fuel, inside a modified rear part of the fuselage, characterized by a greater length and larger diameter. As a result, this model has a greater long-range range. The guidance system of the R-27ER missile cooperates with the N019M Topaz (‘mod. Slot Back I’) radar of the MiG-29S light front-line fighter and the N001 Mech (‘Slot Back II’) of the Su-27 heavy front-line fighter. This model, along with the R-27ET and R-27EP missiles, officially became operational in 1990.
Source: R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) :: Ruslet
The R-27R is the only variant that can be guided by N019 Rubin & is specifically differentiated by type & variant in the same source.
R-27R (AA-10A Alamo A) – a modification of the R-27 missile with the installation of a semi-active radar homing warhead of the RGS-27 type (9B1101K) inside the ogival tip of the fuselage made of dielectric material. The guidance system of this model cooperates with the on-board radar type N019 Rubin (‘Slot Back I’) of the MiG-29 light front-line fighter and N001 Mech (‘Slot Back II’) of the heavy front-line fighter of the Su-27 type. The R-27R missile, along with the R-27T and R-27P, officially became operational in 1987.
Source: R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) :: Ruslet
This is because the R-27ER does not operate by the same X-band channels that the N019 Rubin of the Mig-29 (9-12A), (9-12B) (9-12G) & even (9-13) use to guide its R-27R.
This is by intentional design on behalf of Phazotron-NIIR & Mikoyan.
Reason
The Soviet Union’s largest developer of military radars and avionics Phazotron-NIIR Chief designer Adolf Tolkachev, became an American spy and over the years between 1979 & 1985, supplied a great deal of information about such projects R-23, R-24, R-33, R-27, and R-60, S-300, as well as about air intercept radars used in the MiG-29, MiG-31, and Su-27 and other avionics directly to the CIA.
The United States Airforce & the entirety of NATO knew everything there is to ever know about the R-27R & the N019 Rubin that guides it. Everything down to the exact High & Medium PRFs used for detection & tracking as well as the specific X-band guidance channels of the R-27R.
The Americans were also given the entire State Recognition system of the USSR that was put into service in 1982.
To undo the damage done, the Soviet Union ordered Phazotron & Mikoyan to perform massive upgrades to existing fighters & weapon systems. Newer weapon systems such as the R27ER would not be NATO corrupted & by compatibility with the N019 Rubin. Thus, the N019M was born.
That is why there is not a single NATO country (yet) has the R-27ER & why you will never find an original Product 9-12 or 9-13 with R-27ER unless upgraded to the N019M Topaz standard either.
Details
MiG-29S (“product 9-13S”, Fulcrum-C)
Mig-29S (Product 9-13S) Reg: RF-92262 Code: 29 red
The appearance of the MiG-29S modification is associated with the betrayal to the West in 1985 of one of the leading specialists of NPO Phazotron. Adolf/Alexander Georgevich Tolkachev passed on detailed information on the radio-electronic equipment of the A-50, MiG-31 and MiG-29 planes to adversaries, repeating to a certain extent the “feat” of the traitor Belenko, who hijacked the MiG-25 to Japan. This event required the adoption of urgent measures to modernize a number of Soviet fighters, including the MiG-29.
The information provided by Tolkachev saved the U.S. government billions of dollars in defense expenditures, a coup that prompted some intelligence historians to call him “the greatest spy since Penkovsky.” The primary value of the source’s reporting was that it provided detailed data on new Soviet weapon systems that would not be available from technical collection sources for many years, if ever. The complete documentation on these systems, which the agent provided even before the systems were fully operational, was described as “of incalculable value.”
“The SW messages contained useful intelligence on such subjects as a new Soviet airborne radar reconnaissance and guidance system, the results of performance tests of new Soviet aircraft radar systems, and the status of work on the weapons-aiming systems for various Soviet aircraft under development.”
An April 1980 internal CIA memorandum called Tolkachev’s information on jam-proofing tests for Soviet fighter aircraft radar systems “unique”—such data, sought for many years, was not obtainable by national technical means.
In particular, the MIG firm was instructed to create modifications of the MiG-31 interceptor and the MiG-29 fighter with improved weapons control systems, while it was assumed that according to their model, previously released combat vehicles will also be modified (in a similar way, in the early 80s, at aircraft repair plants, most of the MiG-25Ps were modernized into the MiG-25PDS version, and several hundred MiG-23ML - into the MiG-23MLD version).
The MiG-29S was an attempt to eliminate the consequences of betrayal. The modernization consisted in the refinement of the radar to the level of the N019M Topaz radar, the improvement of the Gardenia station, fuel tanks.
Modified radars allow missiles to fire at two air targets simultaneously, RVV-AE missiles are integrated into the weapon control system. The range of admissible angles of attack has been expanded to 30 degrees, the payload mass on the pylons has been increased from 2000 kg to 4000 kg. The range of outboard weapons has been expanded with guided air-to-surface weapons - anti-ship and anti-radar guided missiles, air-to-surface guided missiles with television and laser guidance. Most of the above modifications are associated with later versions of the MiG-29S. Thus, guided weapons of the air-to-surface class were introduced into the range of suspended weapons in 1995.
For well-known reasons, the wide modernization of the MiG-29 aircraft to the level of the MiG-29S failed.
In 1992, the Russian Ministry of Defense decided to stop purchasing MiG-29 fighters - in the conditions of the economic crisis, it was deemed inappropriate to build two types of front-line fighters simultaneously. As already noted, in the first half of the 70s. The concept of a promising fleet of fighter aircraft of the country’s Air Force was based on the principle of its construction on the basis of two types of aircraft: 70% - MiG-29 and 30% - Su-27. It was assumed that the cost of these types of fighters would be 1: 1.9.
In practice, it was not possible to make the MiG so cheap: its price was only 40-50% less than the Sukhoi (the cost of the Su-27 on the world market is estimated at 30-35 million, and the MiG-29 - 22-24 million). As for the quantitative ratio of these types of aircraft in the structure of the Russian Air Force, then, according to the data published in the press, it was even slightly exceeded in favor of the MiGs: by the end of 1990, at the time of the conclusion of the CFE Treaty, 648 MiG-29 aircraft (82%) and 138 Su-27 aircraft (18%) were based in the European part of the USSR, not counting the fighters of the Navy and air defense forces. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian Air Force transferred about four hundred MiG-29s (80%) and just over one hundred Su-27s (20%).
MiG-29S (9-13S) Reg: RF-92242 Code: 28 red
The following MiG-29S are known: board “404”, board “405” (later became the prototype of the MiG-29SM), board “406” (formerly the first prototype of “product 9-13), board” 407 “(previously prototype” product 9- fourteen). In general, estimates of the number of aircraft upgraded to the level of the MiG-29S range from two dozen machines to two full-fledged regiments of a three-squadron composition, that is, up to 70 - 80 aircraft. It is obvious that the combat regiments of the Russian Air Force are not armed with a single MiG-29S, modernized to the full “depth”.
MiG-29S (9-13S) Reg: 407 blue. Manufacturer Serial Number: 2960507682
Thus, 16 MiG-29S fighters produced at MAPO in 1991 became the last aircraft of this type to enter service with the Russian aviation. In this regard, 30 MiG-29S fighters that were not bought by the Russian Air Force were converted into an export version of the MiG-29SE.
Sources
MiG-29S FULCRUM (globalsecurity.org)
Tolkachev-Successor-Penkovsky.pdf (cia.gov)
Product Radar types
Product 9-12 (N019 Rubin)
Standard model of the Soviet Union (NATO Compromised).
East German Product 9-12A (N019EA)
Warsaw Pact Export N019EA. Lacks “SP” mode (NATO Compromised).
Hungarian Product 9-12B (N019EA)
Warsaw Pact Export N019EA. Lacks “SP” mode (NATO Compromised).
German Reunification Product 9-12G (N019EA)
Warsaw Pact Export. Lacks “SP” mode. Modified to NATO & ICAO standards (NATO Compromised).
Product 9-13 (N019 Rubin)
Standard Soviet Mig-29 radar (NATO compromised).
Fitted with a bulged and extended spine, which reportedly houses both fuel and avionics, and which may also be applied through retrofit. Internal fuel is increased by provision of larger No. 1 fuel tank.
The first ‘fatbacked’ MiG-29 was 9-13, the second pre-production aircraft, which first flew on 23 December 1980, in the hands of V.M. Gorbunov. At one time the ‘Fulcrum-C’ seemed to be slowly replacing the ‘Fulcrum-A’ in VVS service, but the two types continued in production alongside one another and often serve in the same units (occasionally with the very early ventral-finned MiG-29s). Pilots report that apart from endurance, there is no difference in flying/operating characteristics, although some sources suggest that the ‘Fulcrum-C’ has an enhanced ground attack capability and/or provision for an active jammer. Certainly the 9-13 has redesigned wingtips which appear to accommodate new RWR antennas. No ‘hunchbacked’ ‘Fulcrum-Cs’ have been exported yet, though Malaysia’s MiG-29s may prove to be based on the ‘Fulcrum-C’
Military Aviation (sirviper.com)
Product 9-13S (N019M)
The MiG-29S was an update of the original 9.13 model retaining the NATO reporting code “Fulcrum-C” and featured flight control system improvements; a total of four new computers provided better stability augmentation and controllability with an increase of 2° in angle of attack (AoA). An improved mechanical-hydraulic flight control system allowed for greater control surface deflections. The MiG-29S can carry 1,150 L (250 imp gal; 300 U.S. gal) under wing drop tanks and a centerline tank. The inboard underwing hardpoints allow a tandem pylon arrangement for carrying a larger payload of 4,000 kg (8,800 lb). Overall maximum gross weight was raised to 20,000 kg (44,000 lb). This version also included new avionics and the new Phazotron N019M radar and Built-In Test Equipment (BITE) to reduce dependence on ground support equipment. Development of this version was initiated due to multiple systems being compromised to the West by Phazotron engineer Adolf Tolkachev. This was the final version of the MiG-29 produced before the collapse of the Soviet Union and only limited numbers were produced.
The N019M Topaz is an updated version, developed as a response to the compromise of the N019 radar by a US spy. Tested from 1986, it entered limited production in 1991. Slightly lighter than the N019 at 350kg. Topaz has increased ECM resistance, new software, and a more advanced built-in monitoring system. A new Ts101M computer eliminates the processor overload problems of the N019, more than doubling capacity to 400,000 operations per second whilst weighing less, just 19kg, and with doubled MTBF of 1000h compared to the 500h of the Ts100. N019M allows two targets to be engaged by active radar homing missiles simultaneously. Range increased slightly to 80km. Originally intended to be fitted to the existing MiG-29 fleet as an upgrade, about 22 aircraft with N019M are thought to have entered service with the VVS.
N019 Radar | MiG Alley Military Aviation News
The MiG-29S introduces revised radar/weapons system algorithms and software (and it is believed that processing capacity has been increased) to allow for the simultaneous tracking and engagement of multiple targets. The modified radar is redesignated N-019M. Operational capability has been enhanced by fitting a new sighting system, and more recently by making provision for the active homing AAM-AE ‘AMRAAMski’. The first MiG-29S made its maiden flight during 1984, and three prototypes were followed by new production aircraft and conversions. Two polk (squadrons) are in service.
Military Aviation (sirviper.com)
The only Soviet Mig-29 Products 9-12 & 9-13 that are upgraded to N019M standard can equip R27ERs & R77s.
No NATO country has the technical ability to guide the R-27ER. It is a great disrespect to the Soviet Union & a slap in the face to the Russian Federation to give any NATO aircraft the R-27ER.
Serbian 9-12A upgraded to Product 9-13SE standard & N019ME radar. A LEGITIMATE Product 9-12A with R-27ER capability.
BTW the R-27ER is grossly overperforming here is proof.
You are absolutely correct & that is why the R27ET peaks out & immediately drops at 1,000 meters a second (Mach 3.1) at 1km altitude (3,280 feet).
No missile in game is capable of just reaching Mach 3 at 1km altitude either.
The R-27ET has the R-300E extended range solid bipropellant dual mode rocket (same as ER) & is slightly lighter. However, after its motor goes out it rapidly loses energy at low altitude AS IT SHOULD.
Because the R-27ET is modelled correctly.
The R-27ER is not. The ER violates every limitation that other missiles are forced to abide by. The R-27ER is modelled to continue accelerating, fly twice as far & maintain its speed twice as long over the R-27ET. The ER is the only missile in game that can easily surpass Mach 3.1 & still accelerate at insanely low altitudes.
The ER is overpowered & keeps going with its magic motor. Because it was modelled intentionally to overperform and was given to the Mig29 first. The ET was not. The ER is not a Mach 5.6 missile at high altitude either, it is a Mach 4.5 missile tops.
It can only reach 5 if launched in a bi-sonic dash (Mach 2+) at very high altitude. Which means nothing because missile is completely combat ineffective at those speeds. At low altitude, it’s a Mach 2.5 - Mach 3.0 SARH just like everyone else.
The ER drastically out ranges ET with much more energy to maneuver long after the motor has gone out long out.
ER is intentionally launched second, it quickly out accelerates, catches up & surpasses the ET to target.
Additionally, the R-27R & ER cannot ever be fired when the aircraft is maneuvering at overloads greater than 5G & also cannot exceed more than 50 deg/s of roll.
The R-27T & ET can be fired up to 7Gs & full roll rate.
Source: Russian Su-27 Flight Manual 2001 Book 1, page 129 & the English translated Su-27 Flight Manual 2001, book 1 page 91. I have both.
???
I will message you the exact page :)
You are once again posting nonsense and trying to misquote me… You won’t even look at the source material.
The source material shows the missile has correct range for low altitude scenarios and underperforms not only in range but also speed by 100 m/s at 5-10km launch conditions. The R-27ET is far less aerodynamic and this is modeled in-game to meet the R-27ET range diagrams.
Quit baiting for responses with poor arguments.
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If the normal 12.0 Mig29s can’t carry the ERs, can’t you just bug report that? Or is gaijin just letting them have it for the sake of it…
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They are just allowing it.
Just like how the Mig29 should be able to carry r-73s but it doesn’t.
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The R-27R/ER carry all the same hardware besides the booster. All MiG-29s can fire all R-27 SARH variants. The fact that they didn’t historically for a variety of reasons does not preclude Gaijin from putting them on the airframe.
They should give them R73s and take away the R27ERs from them
The MiG-29s carry ERs because some people did not want it carrying R-73s.
For the sake of it, let’s remember that the MiG-29 would have initially come with R-27R/T, R-60M, and R-73. People freaked out at the dev-server R-73, Gaijin decided that they would not add the R-73s without a “counterpart” for NATO nations and the MiG-29 got added with pretty much the worst IR missile that you can have at top tier, cause at least back then the Magic 2 had the excuse of being heavily nerfed.
The FM also played a role in the MiG’s subpar performance, and thus Gaijin kneejerked the R-27ER into the game in order to give it at least one edge, then the FM got better, and the MiG-29 turned out OK in the end. Exchanging the ERs for R-73s would be very nice, but there would be screeching about 12.0 R-73s.
Anyway, I find it funny that some of the people that are very vocal about their opinion of the ER are the very same that were very vocal about the WiP R-73s, something about leopards and faces.
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Oh it absolutely can but having 700 CMs helps a ton. The best flight performance makes it hard to get good launches off, it can keep doing 14G turns forever, and it has arguably the best ir missiles in the game. With these capabilities, it is extremely hard to kill, which means you live through the whole match, you can play riskier which means more impact by drawing attention to yourself, and if it comes down to a 3v1 the gripen can absolutely win. A Su-27 dies the moment someone decides “I want this guy dead”. Your argument of “so what the su-27 can kill half the team” falls flat whenever the enemy team does not consist of 12 lobotomized individuals that try to catch 27ERs with their face. Multipathing exists, and it’s not hard to notch 27ERs if your RWR isn’t shit.
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This post definitely gives off “keyboard warrior” energy.
So, you die in the Su27 anytime someone decides you need to die, huh.
I am sorry??
Hmmm, have you flown it?
I was merely demonstrating an overperformance of a missile & how easy it is to catch people slipping with the HMS and ERs that give little chance to react under 6km lol.
It’s not an argument. I actually killed 8 players in under a minute & 20 seconds. Have you done it?
Can or have you done it?
Which is it?
I do not care what you think it can do. I know what it can & cannot do.
Yeah, I have the jet. Want to talk about lobotomized?
It’s a brain-dead fighter with a ton of CM. No one is arguing against that bud.
Not a hard aircraft to fly in the slightest. It’s a jet that anyone could pick up & fly legitimately. Never rips, energy management is a non-issue (though they nerfed it down a little) guns are little weak but very easy to use & of course you are smaller target & you get stealthy Aim9Ms.
You really do not have to plan a flight out & think proactively at all. You can just flyout aimlessly and go wherever you want any direction in the match & the jet will not punish you for it.
I cannot imagine how a grown man would think flying the Gripen is challenging & entertaining by going into a match & auto deploying flairs and holding down on the pitch key for hundreds upon hundreds of games playing the way you do. Do you try to make it interesting or nah?
To each his own right?
Funny you should even ping me knowing I played alongside with you before & scary lame is an understatement.
Thank you for your thoughts though. I came out of that really learning about the game at top tier with your wise words.
Why does that matter lmao? You got 8 kills in 80 seconds once wow round of applause. Except you are not averaging 8 kills a game in the 27, in fact you can’t even average anywhere near 2.
Idk where you got the impression that I thought the gripen was a “high skill” plane. It gives you free good stats that much is obvious. It’s quite funny you would even remember flying with me, and extra funny that you remember exactly how I play. Guess I am living in your head rent-free.
I can report it, most definitely but it’s not a question not being able to carry the ERs. GJ already know that, and it is why the ER was not released with the first Mig29. GJ never had the plan of doing so & it caught everyone by surprise.
The initial leaning was R73s, R27s & R60s. Which is absolutely on point historical & technologically accurate for the (9-13) But of course the R73 proved to be too much for game on Dev Server at the time and only after Apex Predators release data came in showing poor win rates (though FM was not done yet) so they decided to bring the ER.
Official Legal GJ representative simply stated. (paraphrasing it was a while back) The missile was not developed on the fly for the Mig29 (what I accused) it was a model that was already worked on. That the ER was only given to the Mig29 to increase its game efficiency.
So, I would only be telling them something they already know. It’s all up to GJ to determine how the ER is fairing & whether the R73 is appropriate instead of a missile not a single Mig-29 in game ever carried (besides SMT) unless they were upgraded with the N019M Topaz radar.
IMO It would only help the Game tone down the R27ER spam at lower BRs, allow Soviet models we have not even received yet to be placed at lower BRs. It would also open us up to receiving true export 9-12A & 9-13SE to be modelled in with their true radar, ER R-77 capability. Having these fake Mig29s in game deadlocks them at the same BR & does not solve the overperformance complaints. GJ will be less likely to model any lesser Mig-29s if all of them do the same thing & all have R27ERs too.
I do believe GJ is waiting for countries that rely on the Mig29 as their top aircraft to get a replacement, & also for active radar missiles to be fully implemented before they reevaluate the R27ER for NATO Mig29s & then older Soviet Mig29s.
I think if we allow more people who have not had the chance to voice their thoughts on it would be really productive. We will see. I am not sure yet on the report. I have more I just cannot get anything out without being blasted for attention by the same 3 dudes that follow me around the forum.
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Because usually out in the real-world I do not criticize or speak on things I have never done myself.
It’s kind of a man thing. Hope you can understand.
So I will ask you again. Can or have you done it?
It’s very simple question. You did not have to take 30 minutes to look at my stats & type 4 sentences.
Underperformance*
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I’ve seen some weird takes from you but gatekeeping any criticism about the Su-27’s strength by saying you had a lot of kills once (his average performance is not that good) has got to be one of the goofiest things I have ever heard from you.
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you came back after 3 days to reply this? Talk about living in your head rent free…
So… what you are trying to say is no, you never actually have done it… Gotcha!
If my average performance is not that good, can you rate @MiG_23M ?
Hey at least he does not cheat though… :)
Stop this, find something better to do with your free time.
R-73s would make the Mig-29 12.7, as we see today.
R-27Rs would’ve made Mig-29 11.7.
So yeah, R-27ER was the option for the Germans and Soviets to retain a 12.0 until now 12.7s were ready for release.
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