Yes but that squarely puts it right up there as far as accuracy is concerned with the rest of the SARH missiles. The overperforming datalink issue is something that could potentially be addressed but I was only discussing the erroneous claims made above at the time.
Nah bro, its like saying remove the AIM-54C
Also why remove it, there literally making the R-77 soon it’s gonna be more op then the R-27ER
Being more OP is a stretch, it was good in the dev test and other missiles have some hefty buffs coming their way.
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Everything is updated to align with some primary source to one degree or another, this can be said about anything. This means nothing, neither does it confirm anything. Additionally, you already stated several times prior that the R27ER is the most accurately modelled feature in all of the world.
So… for one, The R27ER in WT can go Mach. 3.5+ at sea level almost immediately off the rail even maneuvering. It can be fired at 90 degrees straight up from sea level shoot up to 15k feet, change targets and maneuver into a hard 70 degree turn after a target and still continue to gain velocity. No air-to-air missile is going to do that.
Even If the ER had an insane thrust on top of a long burning motor,
It does not explain the missiles hyper maneuverability at close range.
The ER has no upgrades in its aerodynamics over the R27. There is nothing different in the ER’s aerodynamic design and control surfaces that would allow it to maneuver as it does in close quarters and disregard the additional weight, mass and stored energy of immediate acceleration, hyper velocity of the ER’s additional thrust.
The ER is aerodynamically worse than the R27. It has more mass from the long burn motor and more weight. It also still uses the same exact control surfaces of the R27. They are interchangeable and have same overload limits. “Massive thrust” would not allow the ER to magically cancel out its weight and mass penalties over the smaller, lighter R27 and somehow enable it to maneuver better in close quarters as it does currently in game in almost all scenarios.
the long burning motor, massive thrust, immediate acceleration, additional weight of the ER should make it noticeably worse than the R27R at close range maneuverability, not better.
The ER has no legitimate technical reason that it maneuvers better in a dogfight/close quarters than almost every smaller SARH in the entire game.
Additionally, the ER was NEVER designed to be used in close quarters or in a dogfight from a Soviet design or doctrinal one either.
The R27ER was specifically designed for one aircraft, the Su27 and its primary mission, long Range Air Defense against United States strategic bombers.
The vast numbers of US Strategic bombers were the principal aviation threat of the Soviet Union. The R27ER was designed specifically for Su27s primary role, targeting bombers at range.
Lastly, the ER is a very large missile. It cannot be fired ever in a dogfight. Its G launch limit is pretty much anything outside of level straight flight especially when loaded on wing rails. So, it’s already overperforming the moment it flies off the rail in a dogfight.
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Again, the R27ER was originally brought into War Thunder to overperform by intention. The R27ER was implemented exclusively to increase the game efficiency of the Mig29. A jet that has no business carrying the ER anymore.
GJ’s goal of bringing in the ER was to increase the efficiency of the Mig29. Nothing else.
It needed to fit the Mig29s playstyle and capability.
The Mig29s (except SMT) have poor radars historically as well as in game. Lack of function, range, modes and FOV. ACM is the mode predominately used.
Therefore, they increased the close quarters performance and low altitude speed performance of the R27ER to match the Mig29’s play style, capability and radar limitations.
If anyone noticed, the R27ER is most deadly in ACM ranges because the missile was tailored in game for close quarters by design and its heavy reliance on ACM. Everyone uses the ERs predominately for close quarters and ACM ranges. That is completely contrary to the entire reason the missile was ever designed.
The R27ER current overperformance is most definitely why we are still left with a with a placeholder Mig29 radar in the for the Su27 and J-11. Modelling the radar of the Su27, a powerful intercept radar, designed specifically for long range engagements, equipped with more modes, fovs and precision would highlight further how overpowered the ER is.
that is not what I am talking about. Full range of alpha is not available for appropriate speeds. In War Thunder alpha is artificially limited depending on a few parameters. Predominately depends on Mach number. This is true for every single jet in game and varies.
The Mig29 is missing full range of alpha and some roll rate in certain speed regimes. has absolutely nothing to do with cobra conditions…
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I mean, that could very well be one of the reasons AMRAAMs loft.
They don’t get multipath filtering until the C6 or C7.
@Ziggy1989
The alternative was placing Mig-29 9.12 and 9.13 at 11.7 with the Mirage 2000.
You either give them an AIM-7F/M/P equivalent missile or you put them at 11.7.
Also… Su-27 and J-11 don’t have placeholder radars.
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Really? Well, whatever the radar is Its identical to the Mig29 radar and rwr still registers as a Mig29. Unless they changed the RWR.
The Su27 is much more powerful and sophisticated over the Mig29 radar.
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R27R exists and that missile is already plenty capable. Not as long legged as late Sparrows, but also quite bit more maneuvreable, fitting for “dogfight” fighter.
I wouldn’t mind removing 27ER from early Migs-29 and pushing them down to 11.7 tbf. SMT probably is going to get ERs replaced by R77, dunno what to do with German 29G.
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Why would you do anything. Mig-29 are good as they are. F-15, F-16, Su-27 etc are a thing.
R-27R is Skyflash, 530D, and so forth equivalent.
Also Mig-29SMT will still be able to carry R-27ERs.
@Ziggy1989
That’s cause the Su-27 and Mig-29 radars share most parts, it’s largely a larger antenna and power source for its longer range.
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I believe that is actually realistic, the RWR for NATO aircraft cannot determine the difference between the two radars even though the Su-27 is more advanced and powerful than the MiG-29.
DCS (which prides themselves on systems functionality accuracy) has the same thing happen, last I checked.
It would not surprise me if Su-27 radar has similar radar identifiers for RWR to recognize as MiG-29.
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29G would just stay where it is with what it has. It only ever carried R-27ERs, no R77s. I would keep the 29 9.12 at 12.0, give it R-73s, and remove the multipathing radar missile nerf so that sparrows can be a viable counter to the R-73. Think it would make for more interesting and certainly more realistic gameplay. More interesting since Eastern and Western bloc would actually have their own advantages and seperate areas to dominate in, and each would have to play carefully to their own strength. MIG29s would have to fly low and use terrain to their advantage to avoid radar missiles until they merge and F-16s would have to do all they can to avoid dogfights with MIG29s and if they do get into one, wrap it up fast before they run out of pre-flaring flares, since that is the only real way to stop the R-73 once you’re within its envelope. Much like they would have had to do for real in that time period (mid 1980s.). Also would be good if these changes extended to the SU27 and F-15A. Removing SU27’s R27ER/ET and F-15A’s AIM9M for them to fit into this bracket too.
Well this will make R-24/R-27ER more op what now
The obvious answer would be to raise the airframe’s BR or remove them as is appropriate for it to provide an option at a given BR, like many other aircraft that also have their access to stores arbitrarily reduced.
For example the US’s F-4E can’t get access to All Aspect missiles (AIM-9P-4, -9L, -9M, etc.), the EOTS (AN/ASX-1 TISEO), or even one of its Targeting pod(s) (AVQ-23 PAVE Spike, or -26 PAVE Tack) and SALH ordnance, and other Electro-Optical and remote control options, IIR Mavericks even though the Kurnass 2000 which sits at 11.3 has them.
All simply because Gaijin want it to sit at 11.0 and they don’t want to have to replace it, even though options like the F-4B, F-4D or Early F-4E remain as a yet to be tapped distinct possibility that could just as easily be adjusted to sit at 11.0.
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I am pretty sure that is only true with the instructor and is also true for all aircraft.
It is also dependend on the planes stability. More unstable planes are more restricted since the instructor has to deal with the instability of the plane and still work.
The trade-of is that you don’t have to think about the stability if the plane while using the instructor.
From my experience the AoA is working fine on full real controls. And thats what matters.
Yeah, thats why im saying to remove the R-27ER. R-24, while outspeeding the sparrow at close range, is far outranged by the sparrow. So that wouldnt really be an issue. Other thing is that Russian radars, such as the MIG23s, are much worse than their Western counterparts.
I wouldn’t agree with Super 530D being bundled with Skyflash and R-27R
While, at least according to stats, it is inferior to 27ER and 7M, it’s still nothing to sneeze it.
It can engage longer range targets. Skyflash (DF mode one) should be fired below 5km to score. Super 530D could score a kill up to 10km even.
530F yes, it can be bundled with aforementioned missiles since it appears on F1s which are 11.3, same BR where 7E-2DF and Skyflash DF appear.
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All missiles would benefit from removal of multi-pathing. We don’t “need” to remove R27ER to make it happen. What needs to happen is that people have to adapt and learn to defeat missiles in other ways, it’s not hard to break lock of a Mig29 or Su27… Why can’t one nation have a better tool than another nation? By that same logic we should remove Gripens and F16’s since the MIG29’s or SU27’s doesn’t stand a chance against them in WVR fights, and currently RUS have the advantage in BVR. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that one nation is better in an area than another nation… It’s what makes the game diverse and interesting.
I still stand by the fact the R-27ER could EASILY be balanced by making it impossible for the MiG-29’s and Su-27 currently in-game to use both their RWR and radar at the same time (as is realistic).
This would give russian jets the best SARH missiles, but degrade their situational awareness when using it, giving lower performance missiles like the AIM-7’s, Super 530’s, and AIM-54 an actual chance in a BVR fight.
Gaijins already said they wouldn’t do this though, because god forbid russian things are modelled properly if doing so would be detrimental to them
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