Remove R-27ER

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

They are your sources, you are now desperately trying to distance yourself from.

They are not sources. The source for the performance of the R-27ER is from Moscow Aviation Institute. That is where the chart you didn’t quote right there comes from.
Here is the chart

The other two graphs as I said;
First is the simulation website. I showed it to be false after doing in-game testing verifying that your claim of 3.5+ mach was false. I used it previously under the assumption it was correct to compare against the DCS model of the missile. It showed that the War Thunder model was considerably slower.

The second is the DCS changes pre and post “fix” where they made changes to the R-27 series based on some new information at the time.

Neither were taken in context as the DCS graph was only shown to prove War Thunders’ model of the R-27 is better than the DCS one.

Here is your claim:

@Ziggy1989

the R27ER is much faster than Mach 2.4 at 1km altitude.

The R27ER in game is already much faster than 1000 meters a seconds (Mach 1) 5 seconds off the rail.

Its DOUBLED.

Would you like a video? Stand-by.

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with. The absolute fastest it can go from standstill in a no-drag environment is 1,075 m/s. At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

You said it was DOUBLED (double 800?) This would imply 1600 m/s… which would require launching at above mach 1, and the absolute top speed of the MiG-29 to my knowledge is approximately mach 1.3… so doing some simple math negates the need for an actual test.
1.3 mach (437 m/s) + 3,195 mach (1,075 m/s) = 1,512 m/s.

The absolute peak top speed of the missile in that scenario completely disregarding drag is 100 m/s slower than your claim.

@Ziggy1989

You verified War Thunder performance at peaks speed at 1km just ashy of 800 m/s. Both peak in top speed at around 8-10s flight time.

The website indicated this, which we have proven wrong. If you launch at mach 1 and 1km altitude it probably is more in-line with the 1,000 m/s. There is no line for 1km altitude so the information would need to be extrapolated. Luckily there are at least 3 other lines drawn for testing and datapoints that require no extrapolation.

Launch speed, acceleration based on speed over time is shown… the missile already matches these datapoints quite well. For someone who has provided no source for the R-27 that matches your absurd claims you are quite confident that I am the one “making stuff up”.

[Ziggy1989]

@Ziggy1989

Its DOUBLED.

This was in reference to something else. Retracted.

@MiG_23M

The website indicated this, which we have proven wrong.

WE? No, I proved you & the website wrong.

You lied and stated multiple times you verified YOUR own source this website’s listed performance in game.

Proof as followes:

@MiG_23M

Will have to inquire the person who made it. Perhaps it uses the old R-27ER data pre-fix or something. Either way, that’s why I ran the in-game tests as well.

@MiG_23M

You cast doubt on the website, I verified in-game the missile is still performing according to the above chart. You’re wrong.

You cannot keep track of your lies. That is further evidence that your dishonesty is pathological.

@MiG_23M

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with.

You just admitted it’s impossible. faster than 1,000 meters a second @ 1km altitude.

Very well.

I will prove the R27ER is grossly overperforming beyond the DCS model in acceleration.

@MiG_23M

They are not sources. The source for the performance of the R-27ER is from Moscow Aviation Institute. That is where the chart you didn’t quote right there comes from.

Its YOUR sources and YOUR argument.

Did you not bring them in and argue it?

Yes or No?

All the charts come from you personally & you thank the Moscow institute each time.
I love how you are acting like I quoted someone else.

[MiG_23M]

Here is an updated comparison since the website was erroneous;

https://img-forum-wt-com.cdn.gaijin.net/original/3X/1/8/18fafeaee420447585a8580f9a100d2500b30dbb.jpeg
In the MAI (Moscow Aviation Institute) chart it shows from mach 2 (600 m/s) launch at 10km the missile accelerates to a peak of 1600 m/s.

R-27ER 10km launch

In War Thunder, 2 mach launch (600 m/s) at 10km the missile accelerates to a peak of mach 5 (1,497 m/s) and is about 100 m/s shorter than expected. This was highlighted by my previous testing that I literally mentioned earlier… see here

Gaijin accepts that it underperforms at altitude because it was optimized for 5km and less performance to match the range and acceleration charts for this area and not for altitudes above 5km.

Finally, the DCS source. Currently it peaks at 1,400 m/s at 10km altitude when launched from 300 m/s.
This shows that had it been launched with an additional 300 m/s speed it would have a peak much closer to the datapoint in the MAI (Moscow Aviation Institute) chart… but likely still above.

In conclusion, the DCS source more closely follows the high altitude performance of the R-27ER than the War Thunder model for the reasons the devs listed in the aforementioned report proving that the R-27ER indeed underperformed at those altitudes.

@Ziggy1989

This was in reference to something else. Retracted.

Very well then.

@Ziggy1989

WE? No, I proved you & the website wrong.

You didn’t do anything but make a claim of +3.5 mach. It doesn’t go that fast in the conditions you listed.

Instead, you claimed that it was faster than the website indicated and I ran some tests. I proved the website was erroneous after you cast doubt on this. My tests actually still proved your claim wrong.

@Ziggy1989

You lied and stated multiple times you verified YOUR own source this website’s listed performance in game.

Proof as followes:

I didn’t state multiple times that I verified the websites performance in-game. The quotes you took from me didn’t claim this either. I have literally been saying that since I ran in-game tests the website was wrong. I did the due diligence (unlike you) and did appropriate testing.

@Ziggy1989

You just admitted it’s impossible. faster than 1,000 meters a second @ 1km altitude.

Very well.

I will prove the R27ER is grossly overperforming beyond the DCS model in acceleration.

You seem to have misread what I said once again. The overall deltaV is 1,075 m/s. It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag. No test is needed to verify this but feel free to prove yourself wrong.

@Ziggy1989

Its YOUR sources and YOUR argument.

There was no argument it was just a comparison of performance between two games. There is nothing to argue about.

@Ziggy1989

Did you not bring them in and argue it?

Again, it was not an argument. The missile performs according to the chart as closely as Gaijin wants to and where it doesn’t - it underperforms.

@Ziggy1989

All the charts come from you personally & you thank the Moscow institute each time.
I love how you are acting like I quoted someone else.

You didn’t quote the MAI source, you quoted DCS and the erroneous website.

Can you provide any source or video showing the R-27 overperforms at all? I’m still waiting.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with.

@MiG_23M

The overall deltaV is 1,075 m/s. It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag. No test is needed to verify this but feel free to prove yourself wrong.

GAME OVER.

All launches above & below at 1km altitude = 3280ft.

All launches have easily & successfully exceeded (while maneuvering) beyond Mach 3.1 =1,027.03 Meters per second

Fastest recorded speed was Mach 3.4 =1,126.42 Meters per Second

All launches reached their top speed in 7 seconds or less.

Fastest recorded acceleration was 5.72 seconds

R27ER acceleration and top speed overperformance at 1km altitude.

I just proven the impossible & proven that you actually have no idea how the game actually plays & anything about aerodynamics. What’s worst you are pathologically dishonest.

[Ziggy1989]

Same 1km altitude & lower the R2ER insane acceleration shown in actual game battles at top tier. (something you have no experience in).

Notice how far the opponent is and how fast they are travelling in the opposite direction.

R27ER's drastic acceleration at low altitude chase performance.

The reminds me. You have zero experience in top tier battles the last 4 updates & why you rely on websites to tell you how the game performs.

@BBCRF you have zero experience in top tier at all and do not even own a single aircraft with R27s & you do not have any access to face them whatsoever. You have no idea how they perform in game but are here purely to cheerlead as a Soviet Main

I have more game experience in the Chinese Flanker alone than both of you in current Soviet Top Tier combined 10x over.

[CorporalApollo-psn]

I’m pretty sure he meant 1000 m/s Δv for the missile itself? You were going M 1.25 (428m/s) at launch, missile reached 1,125m/s.

1,125 - 428 = 738m/s

I’m not sure how Gaijin has modelled the specific impulse though so idk about that exact 1075 m/s figure

[Ziggy1989]

He said quote:

@Ziggy1989

It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag.

DeltaV is his reasoning without playing the game. I can care less about his flawed logic.

I only care how the missile actually flies in WT battles.

The missile travels and maneuvers beyond his comprehension in WT.

@CorporalApollo

You were going M 1.25

I am playing at speeds in which the game is fought & won at low altitude.

So is the missile overperforming or the Su27 & Mig29? Pick one.

It does not matter how fast I was flying, it was low altitude, and the rocket motors accelerated the missile under 7 seconds to speeds beyond its technical capability while maneuvering.

This is beyond his limitation of what he thinks the game

[CorporalApollo-psn]

@Ziggy1989

He said quote:

@Ziggy1989

It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag.

Well, he explained exactly this in one of the quotes you used, you just cut out that part

@MiG_23M

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with. The absolute fastest it can go from standstill in a no-drag environment is 1,075 m/s. At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

[Ziggy1989]

His explanations to why it cannot fly beyond 1,000 are irrelevant.

He declared outright, is not possible that R27ER fly beyond 1,000 meters a second at 1km altitude.

Yes or no?

[CorporalApollo-psn]

His explanation where he literally explains the variables are not irrelevant

@Ziggy1989

Did he not say multiple times it is not possible that R27ER fly beyond 1,000 meters a second at 1km altitude

In the first quote, he literally explains what I was telling you

In the second quote, he says:

@MiG_23M

You seem to have misread what I said once again. The overall deltaV is 1,075 m/s. It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag. No test is needed to verify this but feel free to prove yourself wrong.

This was worded a bit weird sure, but it’s not hard to work out that in “the missile to go 1,000 m/s” the ‘to go’ was meant as in accelerate (Δv), especially since he explained the whole “from a stand-still” and calculated it for you some messages previous, In the paragraph you quoted:

@MiG_23M

The absolute fastest it can go from standstill in a no-drag environment is 1,075 m/s. At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

[Ziggy1989]

You are splitting hairs.

He declared multiple limitations of why the missile cannot exceed 1000 meters a second at 1km as follow.

@MiG_23M

The absolute fastest it can go from standstill in a no-drag environment is 1,075 m/s.

@MiG_23M

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with.

His interpretation of Delta V in-game is proven false.

@MiG_23M

At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

He then claims the missile is limited by of the speed of sound at 1km altitude alone. Not accounting for dag.
That is proven false in-game.

@MiG_23M

It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag. No test is needed to verify this but feel free to prove yourself wrong.

He then claims it is impossible to exceed 1,000 meters a second due to drag at 1km
That is proven false in-game.

He gave multiple reasons across varying subjects as to why the R27ER cannot exceed 1,000 meters a second @ 1km altitude.

However, the missile exceeds his expectations in WT and was just PROVEN here:

@Ziggy1989

R27ER acceleration and top speed overperformance at 1km altitude.

He has inadvertently deadlocked himself in his claims that are in direct contradiction to the ER performance at 1km altitude.

Either he is right in everything he just claimed, & the R27ER is overperforming

Or

the R27ER is performing correctly, & it is his claims that are wrong.

Which is it?

[Ziggy1989]

You cannot answer the question.

Does the R27ER exceed every limitation he just claimed?
He named multiple limitations: DeltaV, drag at 1km & his idea of what the speed of sound is at 1km.

Yes, or no?

It’s a simple question.

@CorporalApollo

but I have not learnt exactly how supersonic/hypersonic flight changes aerodynamics on a wing/body, I just know that they do in a big way, hence why I’m asking some ‘basic’ sounding questions. I did not learn this when I took my pilots license lol

Not just basic questions.

Basic knowledge.

[CorporalApollo-psn]

@Ziggy1989

You cannot answer the question.

@Ziggy1989

Either he is right in everything he just claimed, & the R27ER is overperforming

Or

the R27ER is performing correctly, & it is his claims that are wrong.

Which is it?

This question?

I have not read your your whole conversation, I don’t know about all of his claims. I just logged on today and saw this ‘proof’ of him lying, I looked at the quotes and to me it seemed like a big misunderstanding, of acceleration vs top-speed. I pointed out that he explained this to you in the post you quoted, there is no need to attack me for it.

[Ziggy1989]

@CorporalApollo

I looked at the quotes and to me it seemed like a big misunderstanding, of acceleration vs top-speed. I pointed out that he explained this to you in the post you quoted, there is no need to attack me for it.

You only listed one limitation of his claim why the missile cannot exceed 1000 meters a second at 1km. A basic observation.

You are right actually. People defending the model are hung up on top speed.

The R27ER is not just overperforming in top speed, its overperforming in acceleration.

It can exceed over 1,000 meters a second @ Mach 3.1- Mach 3.4 in little as 5-7 seconds. That already outperforms the DCS model

R27ER acceleration and top speed overperformance at 1km altitude.

Let me know if you have any more questions

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

All launches reached their top speed in 7 seconds or less.

Fastest recorded acceleration was 5.72 seconds

This is because thrust is static and does not change with altitude or air pressure in the game. To match 0-5km performance (which gaijin does for all missiles with the AIM-54 being a special exception).

At lower altitudes the thrust would be less in real life, but burn time longer. The in-game performance was to meet the 5km data from the chart. It underperforms above and to prevent overperformance they adjusted the drag model. This is why it is important to look at the specific datapoints and reasoning I put before you. The devs explanation was clear and you haven’t touched on that.

@CorporalApollo there was no misunderstanding, he just can’t let go of the past and wishes to heckle me. Unfortunately for him it doesn’t make any of his points valid. He’s dying on a non-existent hill because he has supported his position with nothing.

I know you won’t want to be dragged into the kerfuffle but I didn’t feel the need to respond earlier and really didn’t need to now as you saw… What I said speaks for itself. You yourself understood my position quite well.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

You are right actually. People defending the model are hung up on top speed.

On this particular point I’d like to re-establish the fact that you were wrong about top speed.

You were also wrong about AoA, range, acceleration, fins producing lift, etc.

You were quite literally wrong about every claim you’ve made in regards to the missile. Perhaps you’d like to look at the range charts and see if it has the correct range? We have the Su-27 manual data on frontal and rear hemisphere launch range from sea level to high altitude.

[Ziggy1989]

Its over, just stop.

You are the only person that is proving its overperforming …

@MiG_23M

Launch speed, acceleration based on speed over time is shown… the missile already matches these datapoints quite well.

Your only datapoint & only source The Moscow Aviation Institute places it at 10 seconds to reach shy of 800 m/s as you explain below.

@MiG_23M

the R-27ER in War Thunder peaks at just shy of 800 m/s. Both peak in top speed at around 8-10s flight time. The DCS model is significantly higher performance and kinematics than the WT model… maintaining over 200 m/s for approximately 50s whereas the WT model drops below 200 m/s at just 26 seconds.

The War Thunder model of the R-27 is better modeled courtesy of the Moscow Aviation Institute source with correct information on each variants’ motor and control fin AoA, other factors.

You name the source by name when comparing it to the DCS model.

I said the R27ER far exceeds that at 1km.

You then explain in detail why it is impossible to exceed 1,000 meters a second (Mach 3.1) at 1km altitude.

You list 3 reasons

@MiG_23M

You claim that it is much faster than 1,000 m/s but that is impossible because it has just 1,075 m/s deltaV in-game to begin with.

@MiG_23M

At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

@MiG_23M

It is impossible for the missile to go 1,000 m/s at 1km alt due to drag. No test is needed to verify this but feel free to prove yourself wrong.

You are proven incorrect good sir!
He’s freaking out because the missile exceeds his impossible limitations!

R27ER acceleration and top speed overperformance at 1km altitude.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Your only datapoint & only source The Moscow Aviation Institute places it at 10 seconds to reach she of 800 m/s

No it doesn’t.
https://img-forum-wt-com.cdn.gaijin.net/original/3X/1/8/18fafeaee420447585a8580f9a100d2500b30dbb.jpeg
For this scenario, the launch speed is ~500 m/s (1.56 mach).

The acceleration is adjusted to match the 5km altitude figures from the chart the devs explained this already (see screenshot of their response below and click here for the original report).

However I must point out that it underperforms in top speed here by nearly 100 m/s as well. The top speed comes out to mach 4.06 (1,301 m/s). The chart shows 1400 m/s. This is not a big deal as the range and performance charts are still met otherwise…

R-27ER 5km alt launch

And as you can see here, the acceleration is approximately 8 seconds and matches the chart above.

The error in your particular testing was not following the specified parameters. Higher drag conditions or higher launch speeds will cause the missile to reach the top speed sooner rather than later. The launch at lower altitudes and from different speeds than the chart will of course skew the results. In this case, there is no datapoint specified below 5km but we do see a trend. In-game missiles thrust does not change based on altitude so nothing in-game follows this trend. Thrust does not increase or decrease and burn time does not either… so in order for Gaijin to properly model range based on various altitudes they must adjust their atmospheric or drag models until such a time that they can work on dynamic thrust plots for missiles.

This goes for all missiles and especially the AIM-7F/M which are legitimately overperforming currently and need correction.

@Ziggy1989

You then explain in detail why it is impossible to exceed 1,000 meters a second (Mach 3.1) at 1km altitude.

From a standstill, yes. The missile doesn’t exceed 1,075 m/s in any conditions because that is the overall deltaV output of the missile. We can calculate this easily from the datamined engine parameters and start / end weight.

@Ziggy1989

He’s freaking out because the missile exceeds his impossible limitations!

I wouldn’t classify honestly debunking absurd claims as “freaking out”. Your mannerisms in this discussion are degenerating over time. I suggest you police yourself up a little bit and behave more professionally if you insist on continuing this one sided debate.

@Ziggy1989

OMG GUYS

I just realized why this guy’s entire argument is nonsense…

He has been calculating the speed that actual sound waves travel at different altitudes!!!

The entire time!! LMFAO!!!

@Ziggy1989

LMFAO!!! He thinks when the Su27 is flying Mach 2 at 10km altitude, it is only actually traveling 600 meters a second!

Bruh! this silliest uneducated logic I have even seen!

Of course, sound waves vary in speed at differing altitudes, pressures and temperature.

But the average speed of sound the speed of sound in air is about 343 m/s, 1,235 km/h or 767 mph that is a fixed measurement to determine speed in Mach number. No matter what altitude.

I don’t even need to debunk this nonsense. @BBCRF I think you will find this rather humorous. @MaMoran20 @CorporalApollo @FeetPics

[Ziggy1989]

lol I was just goofing around to see if you would freak out like you have been every time your been proven wrong.

@MiG_23M

From a standstill, yes. The missile doesn’t exceed 1,075 m/s in any conditions because that is the overall deltaV output of the missile.

Now you are arguing from a stand still. No one cares.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Now you are arguing from a stand still. No one cares.

I always was

@MiG_23M

The absolute fastest it can go from standstill in a no-drag environment is 1,075 m/s. At 1km altitude the speed of sound is ~336 m/s. 1,075 + 336 = 1,411 m/s still not accounting for drag.

Apollo and anyone else reading saw and understood what was said. I am going to die of old age before you come up with a source for your absurd claims that the R-27ER is overperforming.

Every test and condition that I can check or has been reported has shown it is either underperforming justifiably or meets the conditions.