like T-80BVM and 2A7V versus M1A2s? yeah ik, but atleast they have similar capabilities.
MBT (APFSDS, composite armor, fast) vs newer MBT (APFSDS, composite armor, fast)
or
Heavy tank (APHE, Steel armor, slow) vs light tank (HEATFS, no armor, extremely fast)
You’ve just rediscovered BR compression, congratulations.
But people with HEATFS know that. They will target places where it will disable you. I was playing that little german SPz 12-3 and came up against a T32. Shot it in a position to get driver and gunner, then finished it off. Sure, I didn’y one shot it. But it couldn’t fight back after that first shot.
Okay, what about the Ikv 103, for example?
If we assume the Tiger II stays at 6.7, and top tier becomes 15-16.0 or something, does the Ikv 103 get moved to e.g. 8.0?
well judging by how absurdly low it is compared to others, possibly its a special case
Massive skill issue. Both M-51s have terrible mobility and only the premium one has okay-ish armour, while the tech tree one uses the terrible cast hull. You can lolpen is just as easily as it can lolpen you, with tanks as low at 3.3.
an 88mm APCBC versus thin armor isn’t lolpen
Its the insane 400mm penning HEAT versus actual thick steel thats lolpen
By this same metric of “always doing the right thing” then the person in the non-HEAT-FS vehicle has already killed the HEAT-FS vehicle.
APHE, on the whole, just needs to get in. HEAT and ATGMs must have, within reason, a perfect shot. And on ATGMs they are not that easy to guide and hit the correct spots. 50 cal tanks can slap the ATGM and if you shift about (move back and forth/sideways) you become a lot harder to hit (focus on the sub-7.0 vehicles).
The high pen of some vehicles does NOT instantly make them too powerful for their BR. Heavies until maybe 7.7 are not exactly performing badly from what I had seen.
If you can’t lolpen an M4A1 with even the short 8,8 cm then it’s just a massive skill issue on your part.
Shermans are easy meat to anything that can get a gun on it. And the 51, with HEAT (not FS), is not a stabbed vehicle.
Many Heavies can be “lolpenned” by vehicles lower without these chemical round vehicles, it was nothing new and so does come across as a weak argument.
Most low tier HEATFS vehicles dont have enough armor to fuse APHE actually
It isnt lolpen, its just penning. There is no lol here
It will fuze if you hit a module like transmission, turret ring, the gun beech or the engine, just aim and you will be fine. Btw you can also load he for those vehicles.
It’s an lolpen. There’s nothing broken or overpowered about the M-51s, the guns are the only good things about it.
Which should never be the case for a heavy tank type vehicle. That’s the problem. How easy it is to pen the M-51 (or similar) doesn’t actually matter in this discussion; it could be something as MG-able as the M56 Scorpion, still doesn’t matter.
The problem is heavy tanks being frontally penned by lighter/etc vehicles, full stop. That’s all that matters. Light vehicles should be using their mobility, arty, scouting, etc to counter heavies, not engaging them frontally.
It’s similar, in reverse, to SPAAs being generally at far too high BRs because they’re given AP rounds.
However heavies shouldn’t be invincible frontally because that doesn’t work with war thunders gameplay and maps.
Yeah HEAT-FS is annoying, but people need to realize the tanks with it have huge downsides and aren’t as good as people think.
Exactly.
HEAVY vehicles should benefit from HEAVY armor.
LIGHT vehicles should benefit from FAST speed.
Each class should have a set of strengths and weaknesses that people should exploit within their abilities to their advantage.
Yet, as of now, many “heavy” vehicles can’t benefit from their “heavy” armor because light vehicles can slice through them just as if they were light vehicles too, except 7 times slower. I am not talking about M-51 right now, since that one isn’t particularly fast, but this goes for many lighter and/or faster vehicles being able to lolpen Heavy Tanks.
The WHOLE point of a heavy tank weighting 60-80 tons is for its armor to actually protect it. What’s the point of being so slow because of the armor of it’s just going to be bypassed by lighter vehicles?
Light tanks and alikes should use their MOBILITY advantages to take on Heavy Tanks, in any case.
Light Tanks being able to lolpen Heavy Tanks is not balance. Everyone lolpenning everyone ignoring the numerous other strengths and weaknesses is NOT balance.
The thing is, they already do. There are very few tanks that have HEATFS/ATGMs that heavy tanks face often enough to be a major concern. And if you can’t adapt to facing them, you are not a good player.
Armour does work, just don’t treat it as the only thing you rely on, that will get you killed.
Because not everything is a light vehicle with high pen rounds.
With how War thunder is set up, heavy tanks can’t be immune frontally.
And that’s what other Heavy Tanks, Tank Destroyers and even Medium Tanks are for…
For example: Tiger I can be killed frontally, even fully angled by some of these, by Russian 85mm, 100mm and 122mm guns, American 76mm and 90mm guns, British 76mm and 77mm guns, French 75mm guns, etc. All tanks, guns and shells from its own era.
There is no need for it to be vulnerable frontally to Light Tanks TOO, because, then, what’s the armor good for? If Heavy Tanks can’t even withstand Light Tanks frontally because these come from an era where armor was rendered obsolete in the future… what’s really the point?
There is NO NEED for Tiger I to face ATGMs or HEATFS for it “not to be OP”; it has more than plenity of counterparts from its own era, there is no need to throw at it 1970s munitions and vehicles that are 7 times faster, smaller and more agile.
The situation is slowly improving, but even a single one of such vehicles is a concern already. These situations should never take place ingame.
In concept I agree that heavies shouldn’t be literally invulnerable frontally, but the tradeoffs the light/mobile/etc vehicles make is not appropriate. Tank Destroyers, for example, make appropriate trades to be allowed to have bigger guns (for their BR) that can pen more things and such. They generally trade mobility, often survivability, arty, scouting, and even a turret for this.
Light vehicles keep essentially everything except survivability. This issue is actually less to do with heavies specifically, and more to do with the devs’ insistence that all vehicle types should be able to have a frontal duel. Light vehicles should not be able to engage heavies frontally, as a general rule of thumb.
Light vehicles should be flanking, moving quickly, hiding, ambushing, using arty and scouting, etc… not engaging in duels at ten paces. Instead, they’re basically the best type in the game, usually trading only survivability to have everything else (including arty/scouting).
As said, this same line of thinking is why we have so many over-BRed SPAAs.