Removal of All "Autowin Ticket Bleeds" - A Simple Change to Start Healing Air Realistic Battles

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Air Realistic Battles is an old mode, dating back to the game’s founding in 2012, where at the time it initially was called “Historical Battles.” And most people who have played for the past 5+ years generally seem to agree - the mode is not in a healthy state.

The typical match in Air RB below missile tier of jets goes something like this:

  1. People take off, bombers and attackers airspawn.
  2. Bombers and Attackers usually rush right in, destroy what they can, and inevitably die. Sometimes half of an enemy team loses all their altitude over one attacker.
  3. Remaining fighters climb to useful (enough) altitude, whichever side climbs highest usually forces down the other side, and unless the former makes serious mistakes, the former usually wins.
  4. Match ends once last enemy plane is shot down automatically via triggering “No Active Players Left on Hostile Team” ticket bleed, which removes all remaining tickets in approximately five seconds or less.
  5. Occasionally, when the hostile team is not wiped out, and enough time is available for it to happen, all the AI ground units can be taken out by either MGs, cannons, or ordinance. Once this happens, remaining tickets slowly bleed to zero.
  6. In a few maps that exist in Custom Battles but no longer exist in the main map rotation, after destroying three bombing targets, the airfield would become available to be destroyed, and bleed tickets to zero when it was destroyed. This used to exist for all maps, but was removed from the game not long after introduction of the F-4 Phantom, a competent jet fighter that can haul more bombs than most propeller-driven heavy bombers (and still does).

The key feature to notice here - none of these three objectives requires input from any of the others to win the match. Instead, whichever one occurs fastest effectively overrides any contributions towards all the others, as each of the autowin ticket bleeds will bleed enemy tickets to zero no matter what the status of the other two objectives may be.

The “Fighter Team-Deathmatch Ticket Bleed,” as I am naming it, has become normalized as the default win condition. When it occurs, bombers and attackers have no time left to do anything else.

When the “Attacker Ticket Bleed” occurs on occasion, it negatively affects fighter and bomber users, who complain the attacker(s) in question are “overpowered.” This usually results in said attacker(s) being nerfed.

When the “Airfield Destruction Ticket Bleed” used to occur, it would similarly attract the ire of fighter and attacker users, who complain the bomber(s) in question are “overpowered.” This usually results in said bomber(s) being nerfed until they are functionally or literally irrelevant to winning games.

The net effect of all this is that different portions of the Air RB playerbase are constantly angry with each other, each blaming the other group(s) for why the game mode is in the state that it is in, and seemingly nobody cooling their heads enough to recognize the actual problem with these “zero-sum objectives.”

None of this mutual hostility is good for long-term game health.

As such, I propose to end said hostility by removing all of these autowin ticket bleeds.

How would this improve Air RB gameplay?

  1. Airfield Camping would become irrelevant: Because killing all players would no longer auto-end the round, the winning team has no need to chase someone back to their runway. The person fleeing to their runway also cannot abuse this autowin condition via airfield AAA killing off most/all of the enemy team.
  2. Climbing to Space would become irrelevant: There would no longer be a need to chase the last bomber up to the stratosphere to end the match. That bomber still could, but only to avoid dying and nothing else.
  3. Running Endlessly to Avoid Combat would become irrelevant: Similar story to point 2), it only becomes a means to avoid dying, and the winning team no longer has to play into the games of the runner in order to end the match.
  4. Hiding in Map Corners would become irrelevant: Again, similar story to point 2), the last player can hide if they wish, but there no longer is need for the winning team to track down that person in order to finish the round.
  5. Bombers and attackers get to “clean up” the map after the dogfight concludes: Historically, most real offensive operations had an initial struggle for air superiority followed by whatever mission(s) were to be done by bombers and ground attack planes. By removing the fighter autowin ticket bleed, both of these plane classes now have some time to do just this.
  6. Multirole Aircraft at all BRs would have real reason to use their multirole loadouts in Air RB: Aircraft known for their usage in several jobs (most heavy fighters, fighters famous for ground attack like Thunderbolts, certain Bombers that could also do CAS, etc.) would now have the time to go use their ground attack weaponry without games auto-ending after the last enemy plane is killed. Additionally, as the vast majority of jets in 8.0+ feature substantial multirole weapon loadouts, this would immensely benefit all of those aircraft.

This Suggestion was inspired by the Spearhead Dev Server change talking about how the airfield destruction objective is being removed from low-tier maps. In a vacuum, removing that and doing nothing else is wrong, only hurting bombers further when practically they have been dead for years. But if the other autowin conditions were removed alongside this, then in this case, two wrongs would make a right for a change.

Thank You to all who read this Suggestion. Please leave your feedback below.

Best Regards,
Ckasaron

2 Likes

100% on board with this.

1 Like

So, TL;DR, all sorts of auto-ticket bleed is removed, thus even if all enemy aircraft is destroyed, you will need to finish the thing via ground pounding AI units?

Ngl while such approach looks interesting from pure gameplay perspective, I don’t think it is well adapted for casual playerbase that targets economic profit imposed by the game. Common WT player won’t really sit in a match for 20+ mins straight if his/her objective is to grind (which it is in most cases).

The problem is the speed at which you can also win and receive rewards. Extending gameplay ≠ extending profit, as now, how ever pity it is, AFK base bombing in a short run provides more value than going for a definite win that takes more time and effort.

I support the thing, but I suppose something also needs to be done with rewards for the actual win or the defeat that you tried to prevent, and I am not counting rewards from AI units that also end up as an extra reward for now fighters who only did air engagements.

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Essentially yes, though there are two other parts of this which are pending writing/approval as their own suggestions (busy grad student life).

Those other parts being:

  • Using the Deep Strike event factory as a replacement bombing objective to remove the unworkable and boring existing one
  • Upending ticket values for all players and AI units so that no single objective is capable of winning games on its own, where each instead can only bleed 50% of the ticket bar in incremental chunks. That way, most Air RB games will then become “Initial TDM phase followed by actual use of CAS loadouts to clean up the map”

Actually, longer matches give substantially more rewards than short matches - as a side effect of trying to stop ODL in combined modes, even doing as little as popping a few ground units and then waiting 10 min will give more than triple the reward compared to if you killed those same few and immediately died.

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to get at here - upon looking at my after-battle results, winning only seems to boost SL, and not RP. This sounds like a separate topic altogether.

a better way would to bring in air RB EC

Respawns would sort this out, as people will not be too scared to fight, and there is no win through killing all enemy players, as you’ll never run out of enemy players (unless they all leave)

It would need to be on the larger maps, or if not, reduced team sizes, and have a much higher abundance of ground targets to attack to make attackers worth it

I think what they are saying is.
Autowin via the AI on the ground. Since they can still win the match, albeit significantly slower than it used to be.

Resolving that is part of a separate suggestion, which is still being written.

Originally the reforms to overall ticket counts, autowin bleeds, and finally using the Deep Strike objective to replace the outdated current bombing objectives were part of a single suggestion, but it got denied due to “being a bundle of suggestions.”

Of course a lot of us would think RB EC is a better template, but snail has decreed that EC shall remain in limbo due to queue time and abuse concerns.

And as much as I wish it weren’t true for either of those, queues even in fairly popular parts of Air RB are not always great. I’ve been spading my poor 262s lately and sometimes they get as long as 5+min despite the popularity of Sabres and MiG-15s.

Meanwhile, Sim EC has been the subject of intense abuse and botting for many years now, leading to its economy being destroyed by the Snailgorithm™ and resultingly bled out many players who could no longer afford to play in it but still disliked Air RB where they could make enough SL, thus they left the game entirely.

A better solution is just to add more ground units…

That does not address the fundamentally zero-sum nature of the objectives themselves. Related suggestions meant to go alongside this are currently in progress of being written or pending approval by suggestion moderators.

If fighters do their thing, attacker and bomber contributions become irrelevant.

Likewise if attackers do their thing, and this used to be the case with bombers before airfield destruction was first made too difficult to practically do and then removed entirely.

2 Likes

The reason your post contains is 100% fictional and made up.
Airfield bombing was removed because it ended matches too quickly and reduced rewards for everyone, especially those that weren’t the bombers.

The new system allows bombers to earn more rewards than before thanks to no airfield bombing.

16+ bases is more rewards than 4 bases and an airfield.

+1, as long as ground targets are rebalanced on some low tier maps.

How would this interact with standard ticket bleed, would you still be able to win or gain a ticket advantage by purely ground pounding 30+ targets, or will tickets be rebalanced so this in no longer possible?

I’m not going to argue with you, man.

Even if this is the case, you cannot possibly argue that under the new system bombers are actually useful to helping their team win.

That is more what I am aiming to “solve” here - grind is secondary to making nonfighters be able to matter even when fighters do their intended job.

Are you sure? Because I find that time played is consistently one of the larger parts of my air RB rewards

2 Likes

A separate suggestion is being written currently which focuses on upending ticket values (and thereby also the total ticket count in matches) to go along with this.

Originally it was part of the whole idea, but that whole idea apparently broke the “bundle of suggestions” rule I wasn’t aware of. So I’m submitting it piece by piece, 3 parts in total.

The other two parts are as follows:

  • Replacing the outdated bombing system with one based on the Deep Strike event that happened recently, minus the overkill AI air defenses.
  • Upending ticket values of everything so no single objective is capable of bleeding more than 50% of the ticket bar.

As for the “AI self destruction bleed,” that is a whole separate topic, but it appears as if it has been slowed down pretty substantially save for like two maps (Sicily and Tunisia come to mind).

Yeah, now that I thought about it for more than a second it will actually provide more rewards for longer matches.

It was just that the effort required to achieve the said win is higher. I very often run out of ordnance in a fighter when the skies are cleared from player aircraft, and because you still need to do ground pounding, you are very likely to spend more time to rtb and reach the battlefield yet again, but this time without airspawn mid-course (mostly appliable to 9.0+).

And I am not even talking about bombers… but that’s a sort of a different subject.

These lines were tied to the effort part. I don’t feel like the waste of extra time to destroy extra ground targets is all that worth it, and thus the time you spend in battle effectively should reward more.

But yeah, that is a different topic.

I wouldn’t really say so. There are indeed times when people in Su-25s/A-10s can’t do shit simply because they are subsonic and they happened to get the match where it is not only the map with a greater range to the battlefield/enemy contact, but also their team doing so well that the second they reach the AI targets the match ends due to wiped out enemy team.

This way such attackers and some bombers might benefit from extra time to feast on what is left from the match, especially if allied aircraft ran out of ammo to finish off the ground targets and need to rearm at airfield (which takes some time)

I reconsidered my statement

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Likewise, the “time played” section FAR ECLIPSES everything else. It’s a result of the attempts by the devs to cut down on ODL.

4 bases bombed to gain ticket advantage against the enemy team. The last players were a Mig-19 and Mig-23BN, both easily could’ve lived the entire match because our best jet was the F-100s.

7591 RP into a plane that has the 2 rank penalty.

And yes, extending the match extends profits @Savage_SRC , this is well known at this stage.

Nah, I prefer higher rewards for players by having more things to do in a match.

Maybe, but adding double the amount of ground targets adds double the amount of things that need to be destroyed prior to ticket bleed occurring.

AI self-destruction bleed doesn’t exist in War Thunder at this time. It was entirely removed a long while ago.

Funnily enough, staying longer in game gives out more RP.

Notice how many games I have on the these british aircraft. Notice how many of them are spaded.

Sure, lower rank and lower BR planes so the point doesnt get across as well, but point is that I got to spade these aircrafts in few long games.

Even when I was grinding HOSBOS on the new SLE Tornado, I really only needed few long games to get them, where I didnt really do anything but bomb bases and stayed alove. I think it was less than 10 games to get them.

2 Likes

In current matches there is hardly a need to ever go RTB and grab ordinance. That would now be expected and normalized - go have fun in the TDM phase, followed by a cleanup phase of ground units and/or bombing Deep Strike-style buildings.

Most real battles operated in such a manner, and thus ALL plane classes would now be included in natural match flow and therefore actually matter to winning. Currently bombers don’t matter at all unless they are low and slow hitting ground units, while attackers only matter if a bomber is in orbit and/or a fighter is humping base AAA.

This also applies to prop matches too, because all too often one big hairball develops right overtop the ground units. Purebred CAS planes like my favorite Hs-129B-2 must wait for it to move or disperse to begin munching on tanks, otherwise it’s suicidal to try doing anything. But most of the time the hairball only disperses with the last plane dying and game auto-ends.

Pretty much, you get what I’m after here. It’s directly inspired by RB EC, but adapted for normal matches. The reasons we like EC are 1) respawns and 2) everything adds up toward a single common goal of ticket depletion.

1 Like