Sweet, ive been rocking ground target ammo on the hispanos recently. So looking forward to going back to stealth or air target racks. There are always “edge-cases” with these updates. So im guessing its not entirely there, but a big step in the right direction.
Right now 20mm cannons went from underperforming to “everything outperforming MG151/20”.
Seriously, 2 shells from Shvak rip wings off, and that’s 12g of TNT for you.
Any hit to wing turns part of it black, and I’m talking about single shells.
Any hit near engine = engine damage, unless it’s MG151/20, then direct hit to the engine = absolutely 0 damage.
Well, we gotta have to wait for them to implement realshatter to Mg151’s and see how it will behave with the current buff.
Do MG151s have fragmenting rounds?
Flipside is you have been maining the F8 with mg151s and any other plane with 151s for the duration of realshatter’s buggy existence while everyone else just tickles you, time to suck it up a bit there bud and open another bug report for it)
Couple of games down with the Spitfire MkIX. Stealth racks are certainly usable again, but I’ve not observed any “OP” one shotting behaviour, all targets still took a reasonably large burst. I’d say for the first time in years, the hispanos are actually working as intended.
Try Shvaks and tell me they take “reasonably long bursts”. Planes disintegrate like they’re made of paper. 1 shell made P-51H lose its wingtip, while P-51H has notoriously strong wings.
Don’t know about hispanos but in many cases bad results are caused by:
- wrong convergence setting
- skill issue
Here you have the “very powerfull” MG151/20.
8 hits to the wing alone, 4 M-geschoss, 4 AP-I/IT - 2 struck fuel tank and can’t be seen in the picture for whatever reason.
As you can see, his wingtip is still there and if not for the fire, wing hits would not stop him (fire already did some damage in this picture!). I think I shot the engine 2-3 times, 1 hit from AP would only turn it yellow and we’re talking relatively small distance.
So as you can see, planes survived multiple MG151/20 shots just fine, and yer Shvak rips them apart.
Are you now complaining that cannons do damage again and you actually need to use your brain to stay OUT of enemy guns instead of just relying on guns doing no significant damage most of the times???
Instead, like many already did when they first brought realshatter and didn’t apply it to the mg151 and mk108, focus on getting it applied to those guns.
Also it’s not like mg151 does no damage, whenever I flew the Re2005 I was consistently still 1 tapping a lot of enemies or if need be, just spray them down for a certain kill.
Also, just example…
MG151/20 HEI
Shvak FI-T, exact same spot
Or, on the wing
MG151/20 HEI
Shvak FI-T, same spot again
No, with RealShatter they broke Hispano’s and ANM3s as well as most everything else (except for the MG151 and MK108), you’d had to use AP rounds to do any damage with those guns or get a pretty long burst in, they are fixed now. You can actually kill people again with those guns.
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Real shatter got fixed to reasonable values around 10-12 days ago. Today they made Shvak on par/superior to MG151/20.
Module going black means it’s totally drained of HP. But Shvak seems to drain more HP than MG-151/20 which leads.to big module failure just as soon or sooner.
Shvak fires faster (non-historical) and has way better ballistics (extremely questionable). Which overal makes it superior.
I have shown you MG151/20 in practice in my screenshot. Shvak 1-shots P-51H wingtip out of existence. MG151/20 does not.
And MG151/20 should deal noticeably MORE damage than Shvak due to 4,5 times more powerfull explosive filler with v. similar shell weight. Also BTw Re.2005 has 3. And 2 12,7mm MGs.
Right now the only advantage is, MG151/20 may turn something a bit more distant yellow, but it can’t hurt the engine in many cases, as seen in my comparison on AM-1.
And this means it deals less damage around the point of impact.
Which is exact opposite of what should be happening.
Also MG151/20 passes through various parts of Soviet fighters without exploding, due to 0,4mm fuse which can be seen in protection analysis… Which makes it even worse overal.
And I don’t consider MG151/20 to be a “1 tapping weapon”. As seen in my P-51H screenshot, it clearly requires some prolonged clobbering in many cases. Re.2005 can do that thanks to excellent maneuvrability , 3 cannons and 2 MGs, so landing 12-15 shells is no issue.
With Shvak you often need to 1-click, then 2 shells with 12g TNT equivalent strike around the same area and boom, tail/wing gone.
Here the saving grace for MG151/20 are the squishy oil coolers. If not for them - the plane would be flying absolutely fine. Yet before the damage to oil coolers sets in, enemy may very well be gone and far away. 1 hit from Shvak and engine loses substantial chunk of its power.
And once again, we’re talking circa 6 vs 30g of TNT.
And guess what - MG151/20 will receive real shatter eventually too, as it absolutely should for the sake of consistence.
Right now there’s almost no difference from practical point of view between AN/M3 - 50% more mass, 32m/s more speed, way better speed retention, twice the explosive mass and Shvak.
And BTW these results are fairly random, what counts the most is the damage near the point of impact.
And if both hit the wing tip?
No difference at all, wing tip is gone in 1 shot.
Mid wing? Almost same result. And remember, AN/M3 will always have OVER twice the kinetic energy and twice the chemical energy and 50% more steel to form fragments. Can we see it here?
To sum it up - it’s not even about Shvak being waay superior ballisticaly, having better ROF and gun placement (only last one has basis in reality) compared to MG151/20 .
It’s about every 20mm in game hitting SO HARD it barely makes a difference. And in my opinion and experience, right now real-shatter cannons do more damage in the point of impact, which in my experience, translates into planes losing wings faster.
MG151/20 has advantage in killing pilots and damaging radiators and maybe in slowing the enemy down.
But if you want a wing gone? Just click it with any 20mm in game, including Ho-5.
MG151/20 for comparison, but yeah, I was getting black wing part too, but my point is - it’s not consistent.
EDIT: I’m sorry for 1000 edits, had to make this post a whole, to avoid unnecessary time wasting.
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Yes but that requires community to push Gaijin as they have totally forgotten those guns it seems
Yes maybe bad example, but you can do the same with a single MG151 if you hit it right (at least I had no issues whatsoever flying the 109 with single 151 yday). The MG151 has barely any armor piercing properties (on the HEI rounds) so they just explode on the surface and still have that huge outwards ball of shrapnel like they always had, which from a direct 6 position is crap because the tail of enemy and the angle of wings makes 1 shots very unlikely. This is how it currently is, you need deflection shots at reasonably close range to max your damage with those shells. Whereas non 151 shells seem to have shrapnel flying inwards the enemy plane and shrapnel deals more damage on those shells because they just changed that with this update… but they have far less shrapnel than the German HEI rounds
Well, tails are extremely fragile in WT.
1 shell will often remove so much from control surfaces, you can stop firing.
Of course you have to keep firing to avoid killsteals, but you know what I’m talking about.
Even if he doesn’t crash - he’s out of the fight for like 7m, which is a good deal for 1 shell if you ask me.
My shots are in overwhelming majority deflection shots.
I often watch replays - my teammates just casually shoot the enemy flying straight and not seeing anything.
I come in?
Expect some EPIC dodging action even if we’re talking about 45% WR guy. I just don’t get it!
It doesn’t help them usually. But makes me amazed.
But the thing is - MG151/20 often ripped wings too easily in my opinion.
Now every cannon does that.
Yes, MAYBE with 1 shell, MG151/20 will create a bit bigger issue due to larger are of damage.
But with 2-3 - every 20mm cannon right now will take your wing clean off.
And this is just wrong.
We can’t
Look at .50 cals - they require some serious clobbering. Should they be worse than 20mm, becausse IRL damaging engine was enough for a shotdown, and here AF is 15km away and you can get back to safety almost every time?
Sure.
But the difference got gigantic and I’ll take 2 Shvaks over 8 .50 cals any day for a snap-shot.
Also look at this - I mentioned that IMO Shvaks do more “point damage” - it seems like it’s really the case. Bomber wing has so much HP it won’t go black from 1 shell. And what do we see?
And rear fuselage - I was getting a mix of yellow and dark orange from both, but the scenario below is pretty damn common:
Shot both 20 times nd to be honest - I see no difference.
All cannons do that now, much more inwards damage… all except those that weren’t included in realshatter. But sure, I agree, many cannons outside of ballistics feel the same when they hit. The only difference comes with higher shrapnel (and related damage) as caliber goes up (ie. 20 vs 23mm+).
I’m not sure how (or if) actual explosive mass does anything right now when it comes to destructive power. They should possibly link TNT equivalent to chance to generate max shrapnel or something along those lines. F.e. if shrapnel count for cannons is 1-5 (and this seems quite random now), then TNT equivalent sets a minimum amount to this random number. Not sure, I guess they’ll do something with it eventually.
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It seems explosive mass, kinetic energy, mass of the shell are largely irrelevant.
Which is ridiculous.
Now some comedy gold, I love facing EDIT: premium (because others seem to be more fragile) jets with MG151/20 because this really happens, I could not, in 30 shots, get the same result with Shvak, I’m attaching the absolute worst I got (the part that turned yellow wasn’t even the part the shell struck, I did not move the pointer)
And worst for Shvak:
Right now it’s all busted.
EDIT: A bit further down, these are not the worst results, but what I was getting quite consistently:
I think problem becomes evident once we try to impact module with large HP pool. Couldn’t get that part black even once, I adjusted the angle to 45 degress for MG151/20 too, BTW while testing
Shvak indeed hits harder.
Realshatter is just a different way of calculating damage as opposed to the arbiter of how much damage a shell does. In the old system there was just another algorythm that worked out the fragments, splash damage and so on, and realshatter is simply a differrent algorithm. Ultimately, Gaijin controls completely the damage guns do, so if they want to decrease the damage they can and did, and now they have increased the damage. Realshatter was never the problem, the problem was what gaijin wanted the damage to be and what players want the damage to be. As for testing it now,from what ive seen the simulator in the hangar gives complete nonsense results, but also only for a single shell, which is not more often than not what would happen in a match, and testing in a custom game is also unreliable because the survivability of an aircraft is effected by the modifications you have on that vehicle, and the pilot obviously has the vitality skill, and there is no way of telling what state of modification the vehicles in the custom battles are.
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Right now damage is pretty much not connected to:
- shell’s kinetic energy
- shell mass
- shell explosive filler.
But it’s largely dependent on shell caliber.
Which greatly benefits Shvak and Ho-5 and works to disadvantage of everything else.
Right now, thx to Gaijin’s decisions, Shvak and Ho-5 deal more damage (module HP) than MG151/20, which can be seen on a high-HP module of F-89’s wing.
This is wrong on so many levels.
Props are torn to pieces with 1-2 shells. .50 cals are largely useless.
Current situation is greatly detrimental to the game, destroying any resemblence of balance we had.
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Bit of a hot take there, MG151 still does a lot of damage and prior to this update, I would sometimes struggle to kill an enemy with Shvaks, Ho5s, Type99s, B20s, Hispanos, and so on because I just keep getting hits and a crit. Changing to any plane with MG151s and I’d instantly stop struggling because you could actually reliably kill enemies without having to sacrifice much of your position or energy.
MG151 still does the same damage it did before this update, you can still kill reliably.
Sure you’re right that they do less damage than other 20mms now but lets be honest, it’s not a massive difference, and lets not exaggerate that “all resemblance of balance is gone”.
Many planes were balanced around the armanent. Right now every plane with cannons has enough firepower for 1 and done passes. Furthermore, as you can see, it’s easier to destroy a module with Shvak/Ho-5 than with MG151/20.
So planes which relied on having lots of dakka are now on equal grounds with those that were armed much more poorely. In Fw 190 D9 pushing a head-on vs La-7 made sense.
Right now it’s a mutually assured destruction, with La-7 needing 1-2 shells on target for the kill because you can no longer shrug off FI-T shell to the middle of a wing.
Plane toughess also went out of the window. No prop is anywhere as tough as F89B. Ans F89B gets black wing part from a single Ho-5 hit, reliably.
Some planes were tanky in a way that made no sense (cough P-51H cough) but F2G was notoriously tough. Now they are clicked out of the air. I can’t aim Shvak because I’m not used to ballistics being that good. But when I do land? Oh boy.
It used to be like that: Fw 190 D9 scored kills quickly, La-7 was way more maneuvrable but worse armed, which meant good D9 player could create numerical advantage vs good La-7 player and win even if good La-7 player was able to take advantage from extremely tight high speed turns and good low-medium speed maneuvrability.
Right now both planes are in a one and done category, where even when target is hard to hit, as long as you land a few shells, enemy is out of the fight or dead.
Both can remove the enemy with a snap shot.
Which means both have similar ability to quickly kill the enemy.
And I don’t consider this truely balanced.
Similar story with Ta-152H vs Yak-3U or Ki-84 Ko the 5.3 one vs Bf 109 K4 with gunpods vs Yak-9UT vs F4U4B.
And then you have US planes where even P-47 is at best matching the time-to-kill of Ki-43 and probably Ki-43 actually needs smaller firing window still.
Someone hits you, you should not be able to just “shrug it off” because lol shvaks/ho5/etc. Funny you bring the D9 up, at 5.0 is insane. And sure, if shvaks/B20 stay like this and you can get 10 kills out of a single 120 shell ammo load reliably with good aim, then some BR changes will be due, particularly those at the lower BRs (say, 4.3 and below) and a few in the higher BRs (La7/3P/9U) but it’s no surprise that flight performance wise, there were plenty of Russian planes sitting too low.
Not that they are the exception, plenty of undertiered stuff everywhere… Just to name a few… P51C, XP50, 109F2/E4, 190A1, Ki44, Wyvern, etc.
It seems a bit like you consider aircraft performance the only truely important factor. In a team game.
Unless someone has .50 cals, then to hell with him because he will struggle even with good aim to get kills quickly enough.
You absolutely should be able to shrug off single hits and that’s what exactly Fw 190 airframe did. And P-47 airframe, maybe even to a bigger extent (and other big murrican planes).
If this was a duelling game - yes, you’re right. But this is a team game, where different strengths should apply to different planes. My Fw 190 D9 can force a HARD dodge from enemy plane, leaving it at lower energy state. But my Fw 190 D9 turns like a brick. My Fw 190 D9 can one-and-done the enemy, while enemy La-7 needs priolonged combat to make sure enemy stays dead. And this is fine. Different planes, different strengths and it worked like that IRL too.
There’s plenty of undertiered planes, but right now we have created a whole new balance to the game, where Ki-84-Ko armanent is now on par with Ta-152H (or SLIGHTLY worse) or Re.2005 because either plane can remove the enemy with short burst (and Ki-84 gets superior ballistics).
Also the "firepower superiority’ has been my playstyle of choice for years and gave me great results even vs 3-4-stacks of v. good players (they did not expect suicidial head-on from Fw 190 F8 as much as they should,. lol). You can no longer do that because EVERY 20mm armed plane in game will now ruin your day effortlessly.
Once again - Shvak FI-T is kinetic-energy based and it doesn’t even hold that much kinetic energy because the shell is v. light for 20mm.
Ho-5 is even worse.
They should be nowhere near as powerfull as AN/M3 (kinetic energy/explosive + fragments due to mass - a balanced shell that should be good at any range) or MG151/20 (mostly explosive mass, way less reliant on kinetic energy, way less fragments - but some big ones for sure, especially from the nose part of the shell - the hardest hitter, but less damage to the sides and a bit less damage at v. short range compared to AN/M3 maybe).
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I wholeheartedly disagree… people who take bad lines or lack awareness and place themselves in front of anyone’s guns should find themselves in the hangar or severely crippled. Otherwise they don’t learn. It should not be the exclusive right of Germany and some Italian planes to be able to kill planes quickly while tanking incoming rounds. There are plenty of planes in either of those tech trees that have phenomenal flight performance if not straight up better than nearly all other planes at their respective BRs.
I’m not sure you tried the ballistics of Shvaks or Ho5, they aren’t better than mg151 and nowhere near things like ANM3/Hispano.
You can still do your “lol I have more guns” with FW190s, just now you can’t go retard and just stick the headon because you can withstand tickling, and really, such playstyle shouldn’t be rewarded one bit. Plenty of that going around as it is.
Play stupid, die easily. At least some incentive to learn what to improve.
Also this, totally depends on how good you are as you have the exact same strength:
Time to adjust) Make a mistake = cough up the SL.
If this change ruins your 190F8 spam, then maybe time to fly something else…) 190F8 with its forward airspawn wasn’t really enjoyable anyway… just fly to enemy and bnz them because lol. Fun for a few games, but a little braindead
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