PUMA(10.0)=2S38(10.0)
Do you guys really think this is the right balance?
PUMA/2S38
Cal:30mm/57mm
Reload:0.3/0.5 -Cannot make any difference for PUMA
Shells:2S38 has more than 2 times higher penetration in APFSDS campare to PUMA. PUMA’s Ahead shell cannot work properly on the game, 2S38 can use its 3UO8(HE-VT) which works perfectly in game.
Survivability: Both have unmanned turret and both of them can be easily killed when they shot on their bodies. Both have LWS. PUMA’s MUSS softkill APS never works in game.
It should be 0.2 seconds but is slower.
You can easily test it in a test drive.
I simply shot for 5 seconds, it should have been 25 shots in that time.
But there were only 18 shots in 5 seconds.
Gajijn if you make Puma so bad in the game anyway (armor)!, then I ask that at least its firepower is made correctly!!
being resistant to autocannons up to 30mm unlike the 2S38 which might not even resist 12.7mm 50cals from the side and gets shredded by 20mm APDS or greater)
Having a full ERA package and composites for resisting ATGMs and HEATFS
Having an APS (MUSS - which works on multiple ATGMs)
not having 50% of the tank be an ammunition carousel in the middle that is an OHKO like on the 2S38 (I don’t think you understand that any frontal pen WILL blow up the ammo if it doesn’t kill at least 2 crew members on the 2S38 (one shots it via crew)
Having a frontal engine compartment to both absorb spall and also make ~50% of the rear be just empty space unlike the 2S38 where behind the crew - it’s 50% ammo (dead) and 50% engine (mobility killed) - the PUMA also has a much smaller ammo belt in the middle, but it’s equipped with a blowout panel and destroying the ammo doesn’t kill it.
The PUMA is also far more agile.
And the 2S38’s unmanned turret only has -5 degrees of gun depression?
You do realize you need to be NOT showing the hull for the unmanned turret to be an advantage?
AKA your tank needs to be short like the AGS (both the PUMA and 2S38 are huge buses), or have good gun depression - like the PUMA, to actually utilize it effectively.
Hope this helps explain.
Also, top speed =/= mobility. ??? What did you mean by:
And the PUMA reverses considerably faster and accelerates faster?
Really? I’ll give you some more comparisons. How about Strf 9040 BILL?
Reload:0.3(PUMA), 0.2(BILL)
Shell:121mm(PUMA), 143mm(BILL)
ATGM: PUMA has no ATGM, BILL has 8 ATGMs total.
Survivability: PUMA has unmanned turret but much bigger than BILL.
If you want to talk about the survivability of PUMA, I’ll give you another comparison.
PUMA/Strf 9040C
Reload:0.3(PUMA),0.2(9040C)
Shell(APFSDS):121mm(PUMA),170mm(9040C)
Survivability:9040C has no unmanned turret but it has spall liners in its body. And also, PUMA is much bigger than 9040C, which is critical for survivability.
Do you still think PUMA’s BR is okay? Still thinking it is only 2S38’s problem?
Yes, the Puma is more survivable than the 2S38 or HSTVL. The problem is that the 2S38 is at a stupidly low BR. There is a point where it becomes annoying to face this things because with the M735 i believe it was, the APFSDS on the XM-1, you can’t pen a PUMA from the side with that. Puma can go to 10.3 if it gets spikes and the 2S38 at 10.7 or 11.0
False equivalence fallacy.
PUMA is an IFV, 2S38 is an auto-light comparable to Begleit, VCC-60, HSTVL, and Strf 9040C.
PUMA is better compared to BMP-2M, CV9030 FIN, etc.
Difference is largely cannon size.
PUMA has more armor and is generally faster due to the vastly higher power to weight ratio, PUMA’s one of the fastest IFVs in-game.
CV9030 FIN is slower [as slow as 2S38] with less armor than PUMA hence why it’s 9.3 instead of 10.0 with PUMA.
Of course 2S38 should be 10.3 and no higher; however, it’s not fair to compare it to IFVs.
@MrKrabsPattys
Ah, here you are defending the 2S38 again.
Sorry, but 2S38 is inferior to 10.7. If it goes 10.7, HSTVL has to go 11.7, and if it goes 11.0 HSTVL has to go 12.0 in order for things to be fair. Begleit would have to be 9.7/10.0, Strf 9040C would have to be 10.3/10.7, and VCC-60 would have to be 9.3 - 10.0.
Resistant against 30mm? It’s only for crews who can do nothing when that 30mm tear the engine and the gun apart by it.
ERA package? Do you really think it works in 10.0? Even I-TOW can penetrate if it is vertical to that armor. If it hits with an angle, it doesn’t matter whether it can penetrate it or not, there is no damage. Because that part is protecting the empty part of the body.
MUSS? It works in 40*10 degree mate! Can you imagine?
Having frontal engine compartment(Which cannot defend ATGMs, APFSDS) makes my crew alive you are right. Just alive. Can do nothing yeah THAT IS SO GREAT.
Oh depression?
Do you think that the firepower can be equalized by -5 with 57mm cannon and -10 30mm cannon?
Not showing the hull of PUMA? Did you try playing PUMA? Tell me some places that I can hide PUMA’s 3.7m height, 4m length body easily please.
That mobility part is my mistake. Sorry about that.
Alvis… I hate everybody equally :) i just want the game to be balanced and i will not comment on the HSTVL cause i don’t have it but it looks bat at 11.3. Orrr just decompress the BR’s to 12.7 and we will see then
Having a full ERA package and composites for resisting ATGMs and HEATFS
In the 9.0 - 11.0 range (i.e Puma’s downtier & uptier range), the amount of ATGM(s) that may struggle when fired at a flat angle is 1; that ATGM being ZBD-04A APS03.
Pretty much every other ATGM in this range doesn’t care about the ERA at all, and at more extreme angles, there is no difference between the composite & ERA in effectiveness, so no point in singling it out.
As for HEAT-FS, yea.
Having a frontal engine compartment to both absorb spall
This doesn’t happen most of the time, especially not at 10.0 where everyone has APFSDS.
Reload:0.3/Less than 0.2
Shell:121pen/102pen
ATGM:No ATGMs/1200mmATGM
I agree that I made a mistake in mobility sorry.
But still, It’s firepower is too weak against other IFVs. It’s 30mm cannon is so slow, 121mm penetration makes no change with 102pen of Bmps and bradleys.
Also, the armor I agree it is great as an IFV but still cannot resist against MBT’s APFSDS or ATGMs. Moreover its mobility and armor is not enough to cover its huge body, can easily become a target.
Imagine a 2S38 that accelerates double speed, and goes 30KPH faster after 22 seconds, while having 22% more pen.
PUMA accelerates to 50KPH in 12 seconds, vs 2S38’s 14.
So not as fast as I remembered PUMA. Still 15% faster to 50.
And of course, PUMA had this HEATFS protection which more vehicles than expected were using it from 7.3 - 8.3 where it use to see things. Those strips of green almost exclusively only harm engine.
Now it sees at the lowest end 9.0 where HEATFS is no longer used.
Sadly, protec analysis is broken for APFSDS, but it largely lol-pens.
…And the 2S38 is instantly destroyed. Without the engine and gun being torn apart. It gets destroyed. Or do you think there’s any vehicle in the game that doesn’t get its engine and gun and other parts destroyed by 30mm autocannons? You can take out the tracks and gun of even the Strv122B+ in seconds with a 30mm autocannon (like on the PUMA).
I-TOW cannot penetrate it, even flat-on. And you then follow up my agreeing with what I said regarding the PUMA being far more survivable, thanks for that.
Yes, I can imagine a 40*10 degree arc in front of the vehicle having immunity to quite a fair number of ATGMs.
You can do nothing, but you are alive. And the 2S38 dies instantly. You clearly have a tremendous skill issue.
No, the firepower cannot be equalized - but the PUMA’s gun handling, far better survivability and higher speed can come pretty damn close. It’s somewhat apparent that you’re not good enough to actually make use of the PUMA’s gun depression, or are able to aim its APFSDS, or are able to position the PUMA to take advantage of its strengths in general.
In the end - what you have is a problem regarding your skill. Yet you are complaining about the vehicles?
Tell you what? You can easily cover your body when you play 2S38. And kill others with that 57mm cannon. With PUMA? Although it has great mobility and aromor as an IFV, still cannot survive from MBTs, still cannot cover its huge body, still cannot kill with that 0.3sec reload 30mm cannon no one except same light armored vehicles.
Skill issue? I agree I’m not an ace on this IFV. But still, its not same as 2S38 players who is not an ace in that vehicle.
Puma is doo doo. For me it’s one of the most disappointing vehicle releases alongside the Tornado IDS. Missing MAWS, APS still broken, protection still inadequate and so on… Any fixes have to be fought for by tooth and nail.
please decide if you want to compare the puma to the to me very familiar 9040C or to the Bill
the 9040C also has some armor but no ATGMs just like the Puma, however the 9040C has a manned turret, ammo in a small ready rack, no APS, less effective armor, no Aircraft/Heli tracker
Wait until you find out Begleit is 9.3 with an AP round and ITOWs.
Auto-lights in general just might be better than IFVs regardless of which auto-light it is.
VCC-80/60 is 9.0 with more pen than 2S38, probably should be 9.7.
APFSDS does not ignore engines, it just usually has enough pen for the spall reduction to be far lower.
It definitely reduces spall, however. You can test this for yourself by shooting CV90s or the ZBD04A’s engine compartment with lower pen APFSDS and noticing how much of the penetration is negated.
In the same vein, even if you technically have enough pen - the engine compartment of the PUMA/CV90/ZBD/Merkava (anything with a frontally mounted engine/transmission) can eat the entire shell at times, if it’s a lower calibre. And it absolutely does reduce spalling to an extent even for the strongest rounds.
How is it not the same? I would even say the 2S38 is more punishing for bad players - as it has no survivability or gun handling. Most people have very poor stats in the 2S38 for that very reason. I’ve personally never even seen a single person with a K/D over 2 in the 2S38. But I have seen plenty with K/Ds over 2 in the PUMA.
I’m not saying the PUMA is superior to the 2S38 - I’m just saying that the BR isn’t all that impossible to understand. I would even say that the PUMA is better than the Italian KF41, yet that is 10.7, and not 10.0.
