Pre-Order: Tornado IDS WTD 61

[Morvran]

I wanted to actually elaborate on this. The problem is 3 fold:

1. Gaijin chose to add a Tornado IDS variant that may or may not have been able to equip guided weapons. All 3 Tornado nations have good options for essentially a C&P of their main TT Tornado IDS’s but as a premium. This would give an effective answer for Germany withwise to the Su-39 and likely would have sold quite well. Instead the decision was made to add a Tornado that lacked guided weapons; that anyone with common sense would have seen not being well recieved by the community.

2. The current state of air-modes (and maybe even ground-modes) leaves very limited gameplay for aircraft such as the Tornado. With the lack of guided weapons, this perticular Tornado’s best place to operate will likely be the air modes. Whilst this aircraft will excel in Air Sim, that gamemode is not for everyone and only a small minority will play it there. Most will try to fly it in Air Arcade or Air Realistic. In which case, its performance is far more minimal, but mostly because of how these gamemodes are designed. Over the years, the value for what is essentially a bomber, has been greatly diminished. A new gamemode such as an Enduring conflict gamemode akin to Air Sim but with Realistic controls and third person like in Air Realisitc would greatly improve their outlook. Likewise radical improvements to Air Realistic could also acheive great results.

The compression within these gamemodes also really doesnt help. Whilst the Tornado would be fine against F4s, Mig-23s, etc (those actually at its BR), they are not equipped to handle the continuous encounters with the top tier aircraft, especially the newer ones. though at least at 11.0 the WTD doesnt have to face those. But will still have to defend against F-16s and Mig-29s.

3. The final issue is the current state of the Tornado IDS’s themselves. All 5 of them. The most generous and accurate descriptor I think I can apply to the Tornado’s is that they are “unfinished” or “Work-in-progress”. They have tremendous potential, but have a lot of missing features, those include:

• Incomplete flight model
• Missing 95% of their CM count (BOZ pods should have 28 flares and 600 chaff each)
• Missing ECM (replaces a BOZ pod)
• Radar is basically missing (Full ground mapping radar would be more niche in its usefulness, but its total absense is definetly felt)
• Missing a large number of ground attack weapons (Both guided and unguided)

It is that last point that is most notable. For the WTD the lack of guided weapons wouldnt necessarily matter if it had its prinicple unguided weapons, most notably CBUs. CBUs were the primary anti-tank weaponary employed by the Tornado’s as seen in this RAF document (best I have):

Spoiler

but also more specialised weapon systems like MW-1. That I think anyone would spend £60 just to have (though making this a paid exclusive would be a massive mistake)

Spoiler

All 3 of these issues could be addressed by Gaijin if they wanted to. Change the aircraft into a different variant of the Tornado (though i beleive sources have been provided for it to have guided weapons), Fix Air modes for better strike aircraft value and actually finish the Tornado IDS. The ball is truly in their court

For the record. I actually really enjoy the Tornado IDS. It is a great aircraft. Now as someone who does actually play it in Air Sim almost exclusively. I have a biased opinion. In that gamemode. Its performs exceptionally well. But it feels unfinished. Too often you find yourself in situations which the Tornado should be able to handle, but simply cant because its missing something. Like the massively felt absense of most of its CM count. Plenty of possible stop-gap solutions have been suggested for this, but they seem to have all been rejected without any clear explanation as to why.

This Tornado has great potential, I am even tempted to buy it one day as a way to farm out the German line and if it had come to the British TT, then I would have probably already purchased it. The missing guided weapons doesnt massively impact me in Air Sim and it would be great with the Premium economy modifiers and slightly lower BR. But I would still expect it to be finished ASAP, because it is a lot of money for a half-finished aircraft, with a very niche use.

[Dontkev]

I will try…

Spoiler

[Mianhe-미안해]

I like your optimism

[Mianhe-미안해]

but su25bm is not a premium

[Adrian_T03]

True, but its more affordable option than Su-39 and it sits at BR where it cant face majority of irccm missiles, of course you have to spade it first but if you’re just looking for a cas aircraft and you dont have su-25 line grinded up, it might be a good deal for around 20€ and it seems like it will stay like this for a while

[NoodleCup31]

What did you ask them?

[Dontkev]

What they did used on there IDS at WTD61… since the snail try the retarded mode…

[Morvran]

The only thing you need to find out is if it could equip and use a Targeting pod, any Targeting pod. All Torando’s should be able to equip GBUs but may be dependent on a second aircraft to buddy spike the target as they may not be outfitted to equip a T-Pod and self lase . (Tornado Gr1s carried GBUs in Desert Storm despite lacking the ability to have a targeting pod at the time and were dependent on Buccaneer S2Bs to paint targets for them. They then got upgraded after the war)

[Mianhe-미안해]

But they won’t add pods, cause that’ll worsen Russian WR. Anything they can do to neuter the oppositions of Russia they will. Don’t buy lackluster top tier premiums even if they’re on sale. I made this mistake with the F4EJ ADTW, I thought I was just gonna bomb my way through the Japanese line and didn’t mind that it’s literally a worse F4E at the same br.

[Morvran]

Yeah, F4JUNK is the same on the British line, I’m glad I never spent money on it. But we can hope that one day they’ll spend 5 minutes finishing the tornado

[Kleinkiller]

@Stona_WT

regarding the weapons of the premium Tornado IDS WTD61, we see your feedback and will discuss these issues further with the team. As soon as we make decisions on these matters, we’ll let you know.

I guess this was a lie, no way such a decision has to be discussed that long.

[stanislavek1]

If they don’t want to change weapons, there’s nothing easier than lowering the BR to 10.7… and it will still be too high BR for this crap.

[Morvran]

Would be quite fun at 10.3 with 9Gs instead of 9Ls. But would benefit even more from being finished. Especially the flight model

[Miragen]

Just try to push issues away as long as possible and hope people forget about it I guess, because we all know the next controversy is right around the corner.

[DELTACLUSTER]

Please consider that the team is off for christmas. And I mean every human that wishes to celebrate around this time of year should be able to. It is probably a lengthy discussion because this premium is identical to the MFG and therefore could be expected to sell good - as that Tornado did. The Problem seems that the MFG exists and now costs around 36€, which is really competitive if you only intend to spend 45€ with a Talisman during sales time, even getting a gimmick: History and Missles - albeit some with 0 use cases.

We can theorize endlessly. It may be an unexpected voicing of dissatisfaction that led to this point. The clear trouble I understand is that this WTD-61 Tornado is a plane that they currently lack the documentation of, to properly add guided weaponry. Which was fine for the team when they decided to release it as a premium competitor and basically direct brother to the MFG - which is a reasonable assumption to make. But it is probably necessary to understand that the MFG has the event scenario backing it up and that event vehicles fall under different levels of assumption than premiums. Event vehicles are much more easily tolerated to be… constrained or bad - because they are essentially unique gifts coming at (potentially) 0 cost.

A 70€ premium aircraft comes at high cost and as such follows different standards than an event vehicle. Premiums often have to come close to their TT counterparts in my eyes - or surpass them slightly if a much stronger TT vehicle is available to offer any incentive to buy them. Because otherwise you could technically get the significantly better vehicle for “free” by grinding it and can just rely on the Talisman on a TT machine to progress at lower cost if you want to speed things up.

I have the impression that the Tornado MFG gets flown by people that like the Tornado. Maybe they have it talismanned, but it is not a grind skipper per se. And as such, the guys that want to fly a Tornado when they don’t have one have a considerably cheaper option of buying the MFG - which collapsed in price with the WTD61 announcement - and can tolerate this aircraft to only carry dumbbombs. Because it satisfies the purpose of finally flying the legendary Tornado - and is limited (which is important for collectors) and an event vehicle (it is not created with the task of being an efficient grinder). The WTD61 has the issue that it may be perceived as an always purchasable grind skipper that nearly costs 100X of any currency (It is speculative, but I feel as if 70€ is already perceived as quite expensive in the game market with the hard set of 60€/$ we have in the industry). For such an investment you do not expect the severly - and I really mean severly - limited arsenal that this expensive plane brings (compared to other CAS/Bomber premiums or multirole). It is a troubled airframe in air RB with a gamemode that benefits other planes because flying with full afterburner all the time is a thing to get to the bases first and offers you a fighting performance only - only if you are good. And in ground you have an even more hostile environment you have to engage in without much ability of target aquisition or precise destruction because you don’t have the weaponry. You may have CCRP and CCIP, but in the end, you may just drop in areas you suspect enemies to be or rely on scouting with not much of a safety time to respond to enemy G2A missiles.

The Tornado ASSTA1 does all of this better. And for 70€ you may just get anything cheaper, grind the TT in Air RB with a properly competitive plane that doesn’t gets its bases taken away, because it is not fast enough and can dogfight so you have a good time. Or get the MFG with a Talisman - as this is only 45€. Because in the end it is a decision of enjoyment too. And going with 70€ into a 1 strategy aircraft which loses its value eventually and got not even a gimmick, is… possibly just not enough. The game currently just doesn’t make it worth it. Air RB is a stale experience that made bombing very much uninteresting and unexciting. Getting a fighter is potentially heaps more fun. As such it is probably accurate to state this rule of expectation: A bomber/CAS premium has to always cater intensly to the idea of using that plane in a variety of CAS/bomber missions with a variety of options. If an uncompetitive airframe comes with uncompetitive weaponry, it cannot satisfy the expectation of a premium vehicle to be usable and fun (I will improve this definition a bit later again, but I don’t have more time right now).

Now to touch on the plane itself and for fun: From what I fould this Tornado is a troubled candidate again because it has no numbers that identify it. However, this paint scheme was certainly present on all the prototypes used for flight and weapon testing for the Tornado Program - yes, these were prototypes. Based on the paint this could be one of many, though, I could not direcly match it. 98 + 06 was prototype P07 and used for flight testing. 98 + 02 was P13 and used for testing the MW-1. But there may be many others. The matter is that these planes were actually only partially outfitted with a certain system to test and then a lot of monitoring equipment to surveil these tests. And this configuration verly likely varied as they received numerous upgrades as development moved on. So yes, this is a prototype - based on the paint. Today, WTD61 still has Tornados, outfitted with the newest systems and weapons as they continue to test them. WTD61 Tornados per se could be any Tornado, a prototype, an initial release, the ASSTA1, A2, A3 or A3.1. WTD61 was involved in all of the development (Fun fact: The white and red paint we had as a preorder bonus was the first Tornado flight paint scheme).

[TheMightySardine]

They already answered and said they wont add guided weapons to it.

[Apothic]

Kinda sad that even after almost a year, they haven’t done anything for the WTD61 to make it even at all special. But hey, now there is a new update with such at the AV-8B (NA) premium that gets a bunch of fancy guided bombs (JDAM’s) and the thing sits at the exact BR of the tornado WTD61, specifically in air sim, while both can be bomb sleds, the AV8B also gets fancy equipment…. While WTD61 has nothing

[Morvran]

Based upon the other Tornado’s. If it got any guided wepaons, even just JDAMs, its BR would go up. Within the context of Sim. Id take 11.3 over 11.7 with some JDAMs any day of the week.

CBUs are what are needed for all the Tornados and they’ve yet to be added. Some evidence HARMs are being worked on, but remains to be seen if the WTD61 and the new A200 (Italy) Tornados will get them.

At least the fixed FM is much better and we now finally have chaff on the Tornados.

[Dontkev]

(Insert Copium)
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/sGJtAcADo1YS

[Morvran]

Yeah, but I reckon Gaijin wants it at 10.3/11.3 for GRB/ARB and so wont add any guided weapons. The just added an entire TT Tornado to italy which is a C&P of the WTD61 likely to do the same thing. I wonder if Britian will get something similar sooner rather than later as well. Like the Saudi Tornado Gr1.