honestly I disagree, The Fox3’s are incredibly easy to doge if you know how to notch, same goes for the fox1’s Aswell. However, with that in mind, if both are fired at you at a time depending on the scenario, a fox1 will have a better chance of hitting than a fox 3. for example, people flying at low altitude when you’re flying at low altitude. or an extremely close engagement range where you have a lasting hard lock on someone.
While at medium ranges, or if your extremely high a fox3 will be better. I Honestly think that the FnF capability is while great, overhyped. as almost Half of all munitions never hit their target. an experienced player will have an easier time guaranteeing a kill with a fox1 more so than a fox3. A fox3 is just Easier to use, and more convenient. this also goes for like all fnf munitions. a laser guided bomb is always easier to guarantee a kill over a heat seeking missile, or tv guided munition
also note, Fox3’s are easier to notch in total, and fox1’s are dependent on how easy it is to notch the planes radar. For example a 7m used on something like an F4S will be incredibly easy to notch, but if it was on a plane in an aesa/pesa radar Then your gonna have an extremely difficult time trying to notch it
and yes this does come from experience, as i’ve had situations where i had my 120’s constantly notched by someone while dogfighting, and then swapped to sparrow’s and got a kill rather than just another notch
Like I said I pretty sure you can hard lock with fox 3 to also make it harder to notch it
F2a adtw vs F2A I would rather be in the F2A w/aam4 than be limited to use f2a adtw w/aim7M
???
For fox 1s you just have to notch the aircraft locking you or break LOS with it. If the missile has DL like 7P or 27R/ER you also have to escape the flight path to avoid relock.
Fox 3s you have to not only notch the missile itself but if locked by the enemy plane you also have to notch the plane as otherwise it will be giving the missile DL.
And in case of break of LOS with the enemy plane the missile is still able to guide itself.
Like tf are you even talking about.
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No? Theres no difference as both are affect by MP the same way, infact the fox 3 is much better for the scenario you have chosen as you can lob it upwards so it gets a more angled and steeper strike angle towards the plane youre trying to hit and unlike fox 1 even if LOS is broken and the plane temporarily flies behind a hill unlike a fox 1 the fox 3 will or can still guide in on its own.
does it…
anecdotal evidence at best, copium at worst.
and thats not even talking about the maneuverability of an amraam vs a sparrow
i completely missed this holy
this has got to be the worst and possibly dumbest thing you could have said. No, a laser guided bomb is never easier to guarantee a kill over an FnF ordinance.
Laser guided bombs like paveway IIs require a direct LOS from plane to target for the guidance to kick in. This puts you in the plane at a large disadvantage.
PW2s also have the annoying issue of functioning as dumb fall bombs during 90% of the flight with the last 10% being when the laser designation guidance kicks in. What this means is that pre-release you need to have the CCIP cross near the target destination. This makes it easy to overshoot or underthrow.
LJDAMs on the other hand function as GPS JDAMs for 100% of the flight until a laser designation point is within sight, and thanks to the JDAM part they can be lobbed even at an off angle. Often preventing the overshoot or under throw unless the distance is extreme.
Yet similarly like with paveway, to target moving targets a direct LOS has to be kept up.
Any type of FnF ordinance, be it TV or IR, missile or bomb require just the initial input from the player after which they go off on their own and the carrier plane can evade or hide, preventing counterattack from SPAAs. And thats on top of the fact you can release multiple FnF ordinance at once but can guide only 1 to 2 laser guided bombs effectively at a time.
And for missiles specifically unlike laser guided bombs they have a motor reducing the interception window between release and impact.
It is actually such a massive difference that the fact that you said this immediately discredits any type of experience you were even implying to have.
2 Likes
I’m not going to respond to the a2a part, but as for the air to ground I should’ve clarified.
by “Guarantee a Kill” I meant in the manner of Guaranteeing that a target dies. Not guaranteeing that you at least take one target out.
And About SPAA, Obviously you wouldn’t be trying to laser guide a bomb while AA is up, I assumed that it would be common sense to not attempt that due to the obvious threats. My Argument about FnF munitions Again to clarify is in a scenario where AA has been cleaned up, and your only looking at taking a target out, (Not trying to take a mass of targets out) the difference in what i should’ve said before hand in Guaranteeing A kill, vs Guaranteeing The Kill.
maybe it’s different in like ground RB, but in Ground sim typically most AA are taken out with Jdams or agm’s. most using the latter though i’ve found jdams being the most effective if they’re sitting still as there is even less of an intercept window
Also If your unable to land a lgbu or ljdam it might be user error, I’ve honestly haven’t encountered any issues with them. at the very least not often enough to affect me getting a kill on a consistent basis. it still should be relatively easy using a ccrp,ccip what have you to simply line your plane up, and drop. then just make sure your laser is on target. sure it requires more input from the player (which is one of the reasons people don’t use them) But it can be more accurate if done properly.
I previously wrote Air sim, while referring to ground sim, just clarifying as i see you are responding
there is not a guarantee that a laser guided bomb will kill a target. Plenty of GBU16s and 24s or LJDAMs have failed to kill even on direct impact or when landing next to a vehicle.
even in that case you are wrong. A fire and forget missile or bomb has the advantage of not requiring any further input from player. This means that you can fire all of your missiles or bombs at once and leave to rearm while they guide in towards the target.
In comparison to that a laser guided bomb can at most go up to 2 bombs that are guided at the same time with a delay between their release AND it requires that the designated targets are close to one another. It is inferior in every way to standoff munitions.
Apart from the fact that i specifically said overshoot or underthrow which quite literally points to either user error on release of the ordinance or the target moving away from the drop point, there has been a long time bug with laser guided bombs where they ignore the designation point. As far as i remember it has only been fixed recently.
CCRP is not very useful with laser guided weaponry or JDAMs as you can release them even before being in optimal distance.
You cant lob them in a similar way you would regular dumb fall bombs by holding spacebar until CCRP allows release.
yes, and were again getting to why laser guided bombs are not good. Because they will act as regular Mk82-84 until a laser designation point is seen by the seeker head your CCIP cross has to be near where the target is.
LJDAMs having the GNSS guidance before laser designation point is seen by seeker head allow for a much better and more accurate release.
Both are still worse than just firing of a standoff muntion via pointlock or obviously track lock.
no, it requires Line of Sight. That is the big problem. You need to be visible to threats that will appear at unexpected point in time and so putting yourself in more danger than by just using fire and forget.
Its cool that youre talking from Air Sim perspective, maybe next time you should start with that, however for GRB or even Ground sim staying around and lasing targets is more dangerous and much worse than throwing out 6 missiles or glide bombs and leaving.
This while useful with things like brimstones on typhoon is not important at all when youre throwing 2000 pound bomb at a tank.
uh huh.
Yes that’s true, That also goes with all munitions though not just Lgbu’s or ljdams
The Issue with FnF is that they’re easily susceptible (to my understanding) to vehicles popping smoke, moving next to a dead vehicle, as things like mavericks will lock onto the corpse rather than the tank. in which case is mostly dependent on the player not being aware that there is a munition coming for/at him or his area. With Laser guidance you if you lose the lock you can manually guide the laser to the target without needing a lock. That’s personally a benefit that i prefer over the convenience if I’m not dealing with AA
Even if you get a stable lock, there’s a fair chance it the fnf munition might still relock onto something else as previously mentioned
I mean you can use heli as a example before they had fnf to when they did got fnf missiles. laser guidance takes much more effort you have to put compared to fnf
yea, i’m not claiming that it takes less effort
so is laser guided bombs. Everything is susceptible to smoke. Whats the important part is when the smoke has been popped as many bombs, missiles and such have IOG which will prevent the bomb in falling short should the designation or lock be lost.
Paveways apart from EGBU24, GBU49 and the Paveway 4s dont have it and so as soon as a smoke is popped they will lose tracking completely and fall short like a dumb fall bomb.
LJDAMs, Spice 250s, kh38s, etc. have IOG and so if the smoke has been popped late they can still score direct impact.
This is not unique to laser bombs nor fnf missiles/bombs.
if youre using lock on via TGP for paveways for example it can switch the lock too and youll have to manually change it.
The only benefit is that you “can” change it but the previously mentioned negatives still persist.
And ive not had that many lock changes with FnF weaponry for a very long while, most of the time when its an actual problem is if the vehicle stands next to a burning wreck WHEN you are firing off the FnF.
its a convenience that is not worth the inconvenience when you eventually will have to face SPAAs.
The relock issue isn’t much of an issue when you can manually do so, I don’t see how that would remain a negative if it can be corrected via user input. and The laser guidance doesn’t just stop guiding, it still goes to the laser, you just lose the auto tracking on the moving target
Because you dont have all the time in the world to fumble around with a lock. You are going from the perspective of “oh when there are no SPAAs around ill just drop my bombs and donezo” however especially in GRB at higher BRs this is not the reality.
You will have to be fast because theres always a big possibility that a new SPAA will spawn directly under you or the person youve just bombed will respawn in SPAA to get revenge.
Again in Air Sim where youre bombing bots, you can use whatever you want, even less than good options. But against actual people that are thinking atleast once maybe twice per day if lucky you cant just afford to stay above them dropping bombs as eventually they will try to counter you.
I clarified that i use this in ground sim, not air sim, and i only really play top tier. if done properly you aren’t spending an insane amount of time in the air, it should only take a couple of seconds to find a target, bomb it, then drop back to the deck so you arent getting smoked. if your flying that high then thats a user error in deployment
I never claimed you did I was just stating the fact even if you lose accuracy fnf missiles still hold a better advantage
alright, then that makes it again worse
im not gonna repeat myself.
You saying laser guided bombs are better is simply just wrong.
Be it from the perspective of “precision” or efficiency (how much ordinance can be dropped at a time).
In both contested and uncontested airspace standoff munitions are simply better than LOS SAL ones. Hell even the game knows it as the cost of IR FnF munitions is the highest while SAL are the cheapest.
Im getting tired of this turning in circle.
You think laser guided bombs are better? feel free to continue using them, but they are objectively worse compared to FnF options.
oh also about the clip you sent, gaijin made it so that if you land the bomb on the target it doesnt kill the target, it is for whatever reason required to be on the ground next to it
this was an old video, as you can see the tornado is still using GBU16s instead of LJDAMs.
I am aware, it was however a point to illustrate that even the aforementioned “precision” is not accurate. Also in the clip the bomb delay is set to 0.5s so it doesnt explode on top of the tank.
Again, illustrating the point
you dont need to repeat yourself, and we dont have to agree, i will continue to do me, you continue to do you. The efficiency is what really pushed the FnF munitions to being more expensive, since you could take out like 8 targets with one pass
