If you wish to talk about lumping unrelated European militaries with wildly differing modern histories then you may text me in private if interested.
I have no interest in holding that conversation in public for the millionth time, yet I have plenty to say about this.
I was thinking about looking at the timeline of the two.
My statement still remains. Switzerland should be independent or a shared tech tree between Germany and France.
There is nothing to talk about, it doesn’t matter if they are countries with different modern histories, at the end of the day right now we have China and Taiwan together, which literally should be enemies, but they are together, at the end of the day gaijin is who chooses. I prefer that small countries come together to create a tech tree with production vehicles, while you prefer a Swiss tech tree with 70% of the vehicles being prototypes, and it seems very good to me that you want that, but that It’s your opinion, not mine, at the end of the day everyone gives their opinion on things whether we like it or not.
In any case, the one who ends up deciding what to do is gaijin, and it doesn’t matter if you want one thing and I want the other, they will choose what they want, so we just have to wait if they accept the Panzer 58 suggestion and see where they put it.
Even beyond histories and whatnot there are still gameplay and financial reasons as to why this is a terrible idea, but again, I’ll reserve that for private.
Honestly, I’m not interested in your theories. My opinion is mine and yours is yours, if gaijin thinks the same as you, he will do what you are saying.
not wanting to be an ass but
this suggestion was registered as the Panzer 58 and there is a significant difference between each version and prototype, this suggestion should focus on the Panzer 58 only and not include the Kw 30 or Panzer 61.
the suggestion should also make the distinction of the Panzer 58 with 84mm and 105mm. both tanks belong to 2 different suggestions.
here is a resume of the family
Spoiler
KW 30/52 (1952)= first model of the family, featuring Tiger’s engine and transmission, 90mm gun LMG coaxial, welded hull.
KW 30/57-I (1957) = new built tank. featuring a 20mm coaxial, side skirt, and a 90mm gun in an early turret
KW 30/57-II (1957) = 2nd built tank. The first tank was essentially a Panzer 58. featuring a 90mm gun, the same turret as the Panzer 58, and a 20mm coaxial
Panzer 58 prototype (1958)= Rearmed KW 30/57-II with a British 84mm gun. this tank was accepted to production and a pre-series was ordered
Panzer 58 (1961) = identical to the Panzer 58 Prototype but with a 105mm gun. A preseries of 10 tanks was buit
Panzer 61 AA1 (1964)= nearly identical to the Panzer 58 but featuring the French electro-hydraulic turret transverse as later used on the AMX 30, slightly thicker armor, and a 630 hp engine
Panzer 61 AA2 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA3 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA4 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA5 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA6 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA7 = modificaition Unknown
Panzer 61 AA8 (1976) = Thermal sleeve on the gun, Splasher sheild on the hullfront
Panzer 61 AA9 (1982) = Replacement of the 20mm coax by a 7.5mm Coaxial. update of the FCS to allow APFSDS and modification of the ammo rack to hold APFSDS, new Radio, new rangefinder
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I think your information is slightly wrong, but please correct me if not.
This is the one in Thun, M+0895.
This is not the KW 30/57 II upgunned with the 20 pounder.
This is the KW 30/57 II, re-armed with a 105mm presumably as a test vehicle. Unless it went from the 90mm, to the 105mm, to the 20 pounder. Which doesn’t make sense.
I would love a source for this. I have never seen any images of the Panzer 58 with the 105mm, and trust me lol, I have looked. Most sources that claim this are very poorly-written and have other errors – 99% of them are online websites. I am almost 100% positive that the 10 pre-series vehicles actually just all had the 20 pounder. This website, while not perfect, is the most informative source I’ve seen on the Panzer 58s and agrees with me (and says sources are directly from archives + the Swiss government/army). If you could prove me wrong with better sources, I’d greatly appreciate it.
Edit:
That same website claims the following changes introduced on the AA5 model:
Spoiler
Verbesserte Schwingarme
Neue Tragrollen mit Verschleissanzeige
Neue Torsiblocks an der Raupe
Hydraulische Endanschlagdämpfer bei Schwingarm
Nr. 1 + 6
Grössere Treibstoffvorfilter
Neue Treibstoffbehälter aus GFK
Diverse Verbesserungen an der ABC Anlage
Diverse elektrische Anpassungen
Neue Hörgarnitur Typ RACAL VTH-SV3
Neues Kehlkopfmikrofon
Ersatz der CO2 Feuerlöscher an Werkzeugkasten 1 + 7 durch 1,4 kg
Halon 1211 Löscher
Diverse Verbesserungen am Antriebsblock
Diverse Änderungen im Turminnern
Neue 7,6 cm Nebelwerferanlage an Stelle der 8 cm Werfer
Neue Rücklaufbremse für die 10,5 cm Pz Kanone 61
Anpassung elektrische Schussauslösung
Verbesserung Hülsenfangvorrichtung
Fleckentarnanstrich
Improved swing arms
New support rollers with wear indicator
New torsion blocks on the caterpillar
Hydraulic end stop dampers on swing arm
No. 1 + 6
Larger fuel pre-filters
New fuel tanks made of GRP
Various improvements to the ABC system
Various electrical adjustments
New hearing set type RACAL VTH-SV3
New throat microphone
Replacement of the CO2 fire extinguishers on toolbox 1 + 7 with 1.4 kg
Halon 1211 extinguishers
Various improvements to the drive block
Various changes inside the turret
New 7.6 cm smoke grenade launcher system instead of the 8 cm launcher
New recoil brake for the 10.5 cm Pz Kanone 61
Adjustment of the electrical shot release
Improvement of the shell catcher device
Spot camouflage paint
A +1 from me, an independent Swiss tree would be quite nice to see
are documents from the Swiss Federal Archive is good source for you?
In 1962 the Panzer 61 was in development, the prototype had the same engine as the Panzer 58 back them. and a slightly different turret which reduced the gun’s elevation a bit. the production didn’t start before 1966
but here is the order for the new engine passed in February 1962. they ordered 180 engines which i suppose included some spare engines as the archive confirms 150 complete tank were ordered
i got a series of hundred documents about the Swiss military developments. that make serial thousands of pages like this. I do not feel like going over all of it for an online argument. those sites are off, i can confirm you a lot of things. i rely on primary sources mostly. while i am still working on sorting out those documents. i will just release it once a while on the suggestion. about 30 suggestions of Swiss vehicles are coming up. they are mostly missing the primary sources but i plan to add it once a while when needed.
It’s the best I’ve seen so far, thank you. I must admit I am still partially skeptical as to why no photos seem to exist. Everything online referencing the Panzer 58 uses the prototype images, but I suppose that can be chalked down to a lack of interest in Swiss vehicles and getting images online? Unsure.
What document is that excerpt from?
Either way, thank you!
i got it from these documents. it marks the moment when the Panzer 58 became the Panzer 61
I had difficulty working my way around as German is not the best language i know. and the Swiss German is slightly different. and to make it worse. i work pretty much alone now that my buddy died in Ukraine a couple of months ago. before he was the one who helped me translate and figure my way around.
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Alright thank you :) I’ll take it as proof they did have the 105mm then, for now anyway.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. I would say something but I fear it might break the rules of avoiding politics, no matter how agreeable it is.
(I’ll also say, glad to see you back – I don’t think we interacted on the old forum before, but I love all your Swiss suggestions and your tree proposals. Certainly think it’s one of the top most realistic options for a new nation/tech tree)
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it’s always appreciated. i was offline for about 18 months as i was traveling. but i am back and have no foreseen plan to travel again soon. so i catch up on the work.
I have a lot to do to transfer the suggestions from the old forum and update them with documents recently received.
with my work with the South African, having engaged myself with the Canadian too, working for the Israeli on the update of the previous project, and the French who are always very supportive, i kind of have my handful
for the Swiss, the difference is i work mostly if not exclusively alone. that makes it way slower to progress.
each of those tech trees i made took serial months of research, sometimes years. the fact i keep gathering information that flies my way helps a lot to progress randomly. but still i which i had a team with me like the Israeli, French, or Italian communities (just to name them). those guys are awesome
here is an example of misleading information this website has.
it claims the 105mm used HESH and APDS with a velocity of 600 m/sec for the APDS. this is what the British gun uses which makes sense. but this is not what the Swiss used
this document proves it
the gun used British APDS and American HEAT rounds. no HESH is mentioned. if they worked with the Swiss archive/government, they would know that. it suggests to me they are making up the blank information. that allows me to doubt every bit of information they provide. Therefore i consider this website unreliable. if it was only this one I would just consider it as a mistake, but I saw a lot of wrong information there. so I believe they just make up the blank knowing they are misleading. if at least they wouldn’t claim to have sources.
i was also misled on the ammunition used. i plan to correct it shortly to have the proper ammunition. that also means the Swiss Panzer 57 (centurion) was using HEAT and all the 105mm MBT guns did
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The Panzer 58s that appear in this photo do not appear to be the version equipped with a 10.5cm gun (there are no bore evacuators). It is said that the first production version was equipped with a 10.5cm gun, but this seems to conflict with the photo. Do you have more information?
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yes, those are Panzer 58 during the trial in 1961 when they was checking the posibility to oder 150 Panzer 61. for this they wanted to show how the tank would perform in group operation. this is a late stage of the development. normally when they get there, the vehicle is pretty much ready for production. they are just trying to officialize the contract.
the four first panzer 58 at least was armed with the 84mm like the late trial of the KW 30/57. the Panzer 58 was also mounting for a very short time with a 90mm gun as show in this picture in the maintenance workshop for the Panzer 55 & 58
the 105mm was coming a bit later as the Panzer 61 at this point was mostly needed to improve the design operational safety, simpler Operation, better accessibility and maintenance and Possibility of repair as well as with regard to a more efficient production. the panzer 61 have a bit flatter turret who is also a bit longer over the Panzer 58. but beside this the external look are almost identical.
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we can see the difference of the Panzer 61 turret rear on this picture
Panzer 61 above
Panzer 58 bellow
an important distingtion to make
the Panzer 58 was armed with the 8.4cm Pz.Kan 58 and not the 20-pounder like the Centurion which was called 8.4 cm Pz.Kan.55 in Switzerland
the Pz.Kan 58 have a slightly different velocity than the 20-pounder and appear to have slightly different rounds
An ammunition who is notably missing is the Pz-Ke-G which was already a thing at about the same time
this allows us to wonder if the Pz.Kan 58 and the Pak.55 share the same ammunition and they both have the same performance. as it is definitively 2 different guns. the final test indicates a 9.63 kg round with a velocity of 930 m/sec
the test went on with the Pak.55 and 9 cm.
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So does this mean that Pz 58 has been equipped with 9cm Pz Kan 48, 8,4cm Pak 55, 8,4cm Pz Kan 58, and 10,5cm Pz Kan 60?
only the PzKan 58, Pz Kan 60 and Pz Kan 48
and i am believing each deserves a suggestion on their own as they are pretty different performance-wise
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