Panzer 58

Hm, I find this quite irrelevant.

Do we have enough (unique) vehicles together to make a Finnish or Hungarian Sub-tree?

I think most tech trees bar the largest (US & RUS) feature more or less copy paste vehicles, the Swiss would not be too far off from that policy, especially with the Swiss conversions which sometimes differ quite significantly from the originals…


Here are some interesting pictures of M+8071!

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Well, there’s this, but I don’t have it yet… = )

Back at it again. The fact that it’s Swiss automatically means it’s going to Germany.
At least try to be nice about it…

I can easily say the 20mm coax is one of the few good things going for the AMX-30, it going to Germany would harm France YET AGAIN

I don’t quite get the AMX-30 reference, sorry.

And yes, I will always a) argue that Germany makes more sense to place a Swiss sub-tree, and have discussed this a lot already, but more importantly that b) any Tech tree is fine for me, as long as any Swiss vehicle at all end up in WT… ;-)

I don’t have to because other people already did.
This is just proof of ignorance that I need to send you this rather than you looking into things yourself, even in these very forums…

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20mm coaxial doesn’t ring any bells for the AMX-30? That’s one of the few things that is good about it.

The more I think about it, with how France keeps getting left behind, the Panzer 58 will basically kill what viability that the AMX-30 has. That’s just the situation it’s in.
Especially with you being a Game Master and likely having more weight to your opinion. Seeing more vehicles with French influence lost to Germany is getting harder to tolerate.

I only say that because of some French ties with Swiss vehicles. Stuff like the Shark FL-12 and FL-20, AMX-13 import, Piranha III with TML-105 turret, etc. I don’t think it’s enough to justify being a sub-tree over a normal tree, especially as they also imported British guns and vehicles, as well as German ones (and I am a strong proponent of a full Swiss/Alpine tree) but I’m only saying if Gaijin 100% won’t do a full tree, then I think a sub-tree for France works better than a sub-tree for Germany (it would also benefit the French tree more than it would the German one)

More than a Swiss tech tree, I think it would be more interesting to make a kind of tech tree of small European countries, so a tech tree could be made with as few prototype tanks as possible and more vehicles that were in production, putting countries like Switzerland, Austria, Poland, Belgium, Czechoslovakia and in its final years the Czech Republic and Slovakia, together they could make an interesting tech tree from the beginning to the end and with many of the vehicles being production models.

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The Pz 58 predated the AMX-30 program. The inspiration for the coax 20mm is much more likely to have come from the early Centurion development if they didn’t just think of it themselves. /nit

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If you wish to talk about lumping unrelated European militaries with wildly differing modern histories then you may text me in private if interested.
I have no interest in holding that conversation in public for the millionth time, yet I have plenty to say about this.

I was thinking about looking at the timeline of the two.
My statement still remains. Switzerland should be independent or a shared tech tree between Germany and France.

There is nothing to talk about, it doesn’t matter if they are countries with different modern histories, at the end of the day right now we have China and Taiwan together, which literally should be enemies, but they are together, at the end of the day gaijin is who chooses. I prefer that small countries come together to create a tech tree with production vehicles, while you prefer a Swiss tech tree with 70% of the vehicles being prototypes, and it seems very good to me that you want that, but that It’s your opinion, not mine, at the end of the day everyone gives their opinion on things whether we like it or not.
In any case, the one who ends up deciding what to do is gaijin, and it doesn’t matter if you want one thing and I want the other, they will choose what they want, so we just have to wait if they accept the Panzer 58 suggestion and see where they put it.

Even beyond histories and whatnot there are still gameplay and financial reasons as to why this is a terrible idea, but again, I’ll reserve that for private.

Honestly, I’m not interested in your theories. My opinion is mine and yours is yours, if gaijin thinks the same as you, he will do what you are saying.

not wanting to be an ass but

this suggestion was registered as the Panzer 58 and there is a significant difference between each version and prototype, this suggestion should focus on the Panzer 58 only and not include the Kw 30 or Panzer 61.

the suggestion should also make the distinction of the Panzer 58 with 84mm and 105mm. both tanks belong to 2 different suggestions.

here is a resume of the family


KW 30/52 (1952)= first model of the family, featuring Tiger’s engine and transmission, 90mm gun LMG coaxial, welded hull.

KW 30/57-I (1957) = new built tank. featuring a 20mm coaxial, side skirt, and a 90mm gun in an early turret

KW 30/57-II (1957) = 2nd built tank. The first tank was essentially a Panzer 58. featuring a 90mm gun, the same turret as the Panzer 58, and a 20mm coaxial

Panzer 58 prototype (1958)= Rearmed KW 30/57-II with a British 84mm gun. this tank was accepted to production and a pre-series was ordered

Panzer 58 (1961) = identical to the Panzer 58 Prototype but with a 105mm gun. A preseries of 10 tanks was buit

Panzer 61 AA1 (1964)= nearly identical to the Panzer 58 but featuring the French electro-hydraulic turret transverse as later used on the AMX 30, slightly thicker armor, and a 630 hp engine

Panzer 61 AA2 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA3 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA4 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA5 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA6 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA7 = modificaition Unknown

Panzer 61 AA8 (1976) = Thermal sleeve on the gun, Splasher sheild on the hullfront

Panzer 61 AA9 (1982) = Replacement of the 20mm coax by a 7.5mm Coaxial. update of the FCS to allow APFSDS and modification of the ammo rack to hold APFSDS, new Radio, new rangefinder

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I think your information is slightly wrong, but please correct me if not.

This is the one in Thun, M+0895.

This is not the KW 30/57 II upgunned with the 20 pounder.

This is the KW 30/57 II, re-armed with a 105mm presumably as a test vehicle. Unless it went from the 90mm, to the 105mm, to the 20 pounder. Which doesn’t make sense.

I would love a source for this. I have never seen any images of the Panzer 58 with the 105mm, and trust me lol, I have looked. Most sources that claim this are very poorly-written and have other errors – 99% of them are online websites. I am almost 100% positive that the 10 pre-series vehicles actually just all had the 20 pounder. This website, while not perfect, is the most informative source I’ve seen on the Panzer 58s and agrees with me (and says sources are directly from archives + the Swiss government/army). If you could prove me wrong with better sources, I’d greatly appreciate it.

That same website claims the following changes introduced on the AA5 model:


Verbesserte Schwingarme
Neue Tragrollen mit Verschleissanzeige
Neue Torsiblocks an der Raupe
Hydraulische Endanschlagdämpfer bei Schwingarm
Nr. 1 + 6
Grössere Treibstoffvorfilter
Neue Treibstoffbehälter aus GFK
Diverse Verbesserungen an der ABC Anlage
Diverse elektrische Anpassungen
Neue Hörgarnitur Typ RACAL VTH-SV3
Neues Kehlkopfmikrofon
Ersatz der CO2 Feuerlöscher an Werkzeugkasten 1 + 7 durch 1,4 kg
Halon 1211 Löscher
Diverse Verbesserungen am Antriebsblock
Diverse Änderungen im Turminnern
Neue 7,6 cm Nebelwerferanlage an Stelle der 8 cm Werfer
Neue Rücklaufbremse für die 10,5 cm Pz Kanone 61
Anpassung elektrische Schussauslösung
Verbesserung Hülsenfangvorrichtung

Improved swing arms
New support rollers with wear indicator
New torsion blocks on the caterpillar
Hydraulic end stop dampers on swing arm
No. 1 + 6
Larger fuel pre-filters
New fuel tanks made of GRP
Various improvements to the ABC system
Various electrical adjustments
New hearing set type RACAL VTH-SV3
New throat microphone
Replacement of the CO2 fire extinguishers on toolbox 1 + 7 with 1.4 kg
Halon 1211 extinguishers
Various improvements to the drive block
Various changes inside the turret
New 7.6 cm smoke grenade launcher system instead of the 8 cm launcher
New recoil brake for the 10.5 cm Pz Kanone 61
Adjustment of the electrical shot release
Improvement of the shell catcher device
Spot camouflage paint

A +1 from me, an independent Swiss tree would be quite nice to see

are documents from the Swiss Federal Archive is good source for you?

In 1962 the Panzer 61 was in development, the prototype had the same engine as the Panzer 58 back them. and a slightly different turret which reduced the gun’s elevation a bit. the production didn’t start before 1966

but here is the order for the new engine passed in February 1962. they ordered 180 engines which i suppose included some spare engines as the archive confirms 150 complete tank were ordered

i got a series of hundred documents about the Swiss military developments. that make serial thousands of pages like this. I do not feel like going over all of it for an online argument. those sites are off, i can confirm you a lot of things. i rely on primary sources mostly. while i am still working on sorting out those documents. i will just release it once a while on the suggestion. about 30 suggestions of Swiss vehicles are coming up. they are mostly missing the primary sources but i plan to add it once a while when needed.

It’s the best I’ve seen so far, thank you. I must admit I am still partially skeptical as to why no photos seem to exist. Everything online referencing the Panzer 58 uses the prototype images, but I suppose that can be chalked down to a lack of interest in Swiss vehicles and getting images online? Unsure.

What document is that excerpt from?

Either way, thank you!