As well as worse speed, elevation speed, armor, much bigger silhouette, lack of smokes, more ricochetable shells then pz. But 80 gramm instead of 17!!!
Troll, bb.
The Chi-To is awful, it’s wayyy too high in BR.
That’s a common theme for Japanese vehicles though, look at the Zeros and the Chi-ri too.
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Chi-to is faster in both direction than Panzer 4s.
75 mm vs 80mm in the hull and 75mm vs 50 in the turret.
Chi-to is 2,87 meters tall vs 2,68 meters for the Panzer 4s and 2,87 meters vs 2,88 meters in wide.
So both have more or less the same silhouette.
What???
Great argument.
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No, he is completely right. They are very similiar vehicles but the Japanese 75mm is simply much more effective.
More and easier kills is the only metric that really matters, therefore they perform better and have a higher BR.
If the same vehicles gets 30% more kills because of better killing power it’s simply better, case closed.
Hypothetical scenarios about how a vehicle could be better than others based on specific vehicles advantage don’t mean anything without considering the nature of the game.
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more ricochetable shells then
AP rounds have a higher ricochet chance than APC, meaning that you can just randomly bounce when your round should otherwise penetrate.
It doesn’t happen often nowadays because of the 0.6x overmatch modifier that nullifies RNG bounces but when you hit a slightly angled Sherman with 75mm AP or a Panther with 90 or 100mm AP or APC, you can still randomly bounce of the armor.
Just an incredibly stupid mechanic.
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Even if we pretend those aren’t already .3 higher than the other Panzer IVs, a 100m/s is worth a 1 BR difference?
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Not that big of a difference. Panzers IVs can and do oneshot quite reliably with well placed shots, and cripple tanks consistently on less accurate shots. Chi-Tos are more or less the same, they just require slightly less precision with shot placement. If you’re making good shots, that extra filler isn’t going to make your target more dead.
It’s only really noticable on super large tanks like the TOG or M6, but even then, that first shot will have crippled them, and it’s not like the 75mm reloads slowly. Is this really worth a 1.3 BR difference? That’s a huge gap, equivalent to the difference between the T-34 1942 and T-34-85, or the Jagdpanzer IV to the IV(70). A gap that large should mean you get some massive, tangeble improvements, not something that is effectively a quality of life change.
The actual reason for this is due to WG’s arbitrary overpressure metric. To overpressure, a round needs >=200g of TNT equivalent. Old M82 had this, so if it penetrated a tank, and a single fragment touched anything internal, the tank was oneshot, no questions asked. New M82 has only 137.2g, so it can’t. This is a change from a round that will oneshot every single time to one that will only oneshot with well placed rounds against relatively cramped tanks. It’s a bit more than a jump from fairly lethal to very lethal.
Im with Flak, the chi tos are amazing, i literally played them both with my chi ri and and im going like 20 and 80 with them they are fun vehicles eith a good gun and surprisingly trolly armor. Are they better than pnzr 4 yes, are they better than t34, no the 3.7-4.7 t34s are incredibly strong due to volumetric and their excellent guns, i have a newr 7 kd in the t34-57
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It’s also a smaller vehicle, with a more cramped crew, worse armor profile, it’s taller, has worse lineup options and whatever it gained by more TNT filler, which I doubt is even actually reflected in game, is more than negated by the full BR increase where it faces significantly more armored and stronger targets whilst still having the same firepower.
Is not only shell speed, is a combination of better penetration, post pen damage, more turret armor and speed.
Near 60 g. of explosive filler… nah…
All Panzer 4 with long barrels are 3.7 with the only exception of German G and F2.
Maybe 20 cm taller ? cmon!!!
Can Chi-tos move to 4.3 ??? probably yes, but with that nosense comparisons is not the best way for obtain a BR reduction basically because Chi-to are betters.
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Players are better too cause minor nations dont bring the attraction that major nations do
Is not only shell speed, is a combination of better penetration, post pen damage, more turret armor and speed.
It’s going to need it when it faces enemies 2 BRs higher than a Panzer IV.
Maybe 20 cm taller ? cmon!!!
Can Chi-tos move to 4.3 ??? probably yes, but with that nosense comparisons is not the best way for obtain a BR reduction basically because Chi-to are betters.
It’s a significantly worse profile, the turret is way more elongated creating a massive target, where the Panzer IV has trolly armor with several layers and is a lot smaller target with more spaced out crew making it a lot more survivable than a Chi-To.
So for Chi-to big space is bad thing becuase create a big target but in the Panzer 4 is good because this create a more survavility.
Really this is just insane, Panzer 4s is probably one of the most easy to kill tanks in the game.
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As I already said, it’s a difference, but a 1.3 BR difference? A reminder that that’s the difference between the T-34 1942 and T-34-85, which just so conincidentally also has that 60g explosive filler difference, as a cherry on top to the massively better gun, with over 50% more pen, near magical angled performance and 150 m/s more velocity.
What do the Chi-Tos get? Same filler upgrade, but a mere 6mm of pen, 90 m/s upgrade in velocity. Slightly trollier armor, but not enough to rely on in any way. You also have a slightly worse reload, you lose smoke grenades and rounds, worse MGs, larger profile turret making it more vulnerable when hull down, ready rack at the back of the turret meaning even solid shot can oneshot you frontally when hull down, etc.
Also, fun fact, that 80g of TNT equivalent you’re gushing about isn’t even all that special when compared to non-German guns. M62 has just 17g less. The Soviet 76mm has 20g more, and the 85mm has over double at 164g.
So literally half of them are 3.3, glad you agree with me. Not to mention the better half, with the J being at 3.7 for god knows what reason despite being an effective downgrade to the F2 and G.
Wtf dude??? there are 7 long barrels Panzer 4s and only 2 are 3.3. Thats the half for you???
TBH some of the panzer 4’s seem superior to the Japan 4.3-4.7 mediums, which have similar guns and armor thickness (depending on which models you compare), yet the Pz IV retains slightly better mobility, more shell options, and smoke launchers at a full BR lower. I know it’s because there is a huge gap in the type of players that are playing Japan 4.7 vs Germany in the same BR area, but come on.
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There are 5 long barrel Panzer IVs at 3.7, 3 of which are just Js, which makes it pointless to count them more than once. That leaves the J, the H, and the Italian G (Which I admittedly did forget about).
The G being at 3.7 in the Italian tree actually helps my point though. It’s objectively worse than the German one, if only slightly (Worse track armor locations), and yet despite being a premium, it seems to be doing just fine at 3.7.
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So for Chi-to big space is bad thing becuase create a big target but in the Panzer 4 is good because this create a more survavility.
It’s not big space, just a big target with easy to hit pieces.
Really this is just insane, Panzer 4s is probably one of the most easy to kill tanks in the game.
Many would disagree, the Chi-To certainly is not more difficult to kill anyways.
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The Panzer IV F2/G/H are superb vehicles and were even at their older, higher BRs of 3.7-4.3. (The J variant is alright, but it’s more akin to a TD.) The only real flaw of the vehicles now is their bogus Tier II ranking…that ruined these vehicles.
Overall, the late Panzer IVs are probably the most well-rounded vehicles–they have decent armor and excellent firepower.
On the peers of the Pz. IV, the 75mm Shermans are comparable in most respects (notably good gun traverse and handling), though the M4’s main cannon is a bit inferior and only some variants have a 12.7mm MG to compensate for this. The T-34 has similar firepower as the M4 and arguably better armor but its gun traverse (especially elevation range) is poorer.
I have not tried the Swedish or Italian Panzer IVs in earnest, but I have no reason to expect them to be much different from the excellent German examples.
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M4s also get a stabilizer, better armor and a faster reload on top of their .50s, Panzers only get their firepower, although none of that helps against the janky T-34 armor.
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