That isnt installed thrust mate… if installed reheat was that high the combat setting could only improve thrust by .05%…
Unless are you arguing the tactics manual is wrong?
So I assume the Mig-21 is having its extra power removed, with the possibility to be added back later
It’s a bit concerning if I understand this situation right.
Tornado F.3 had combat power rejected as developer stated combat power isn’t modeled for any aircraft.
In a report regarding Mig-21’s flight model, developers stated something in a way that showed it has combat power modeled.
So this inconsistency between the developers and not having consistent applications is a bit troubling.
So are developers now stating combat power will/can be modeled for all aircrafts that have it?
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Didnt gajin orignialy say that tornado MFG and WTD BR is based on their ground performance. Jesus they dropped it to 10.3, but didnt touch the real tornados at all
MIG 21 has it right now, other planes might get it in the future.
Wonder how many planes have the combat/emergency/any other over the normal thrust right now.
Might/maybe…in the future…
The usage of certain words is problematic but maybe I’m overthinking it.
Cause it leaves a scenario where Mig-21 is the only aircraft with this feature for the forseeable future.
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Im more interested in what planes expect MIG 21 have it right now. MIG 21 was found, but what about the rest? Are all other planes using normal power only?
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@Gunjob @Fireball_2020 My interpretation on F.3 thrust is as follows:
Uninstalled max reheat thrust is 16,400 lb according to the RB199 datasheet:
When the engine is installed this drops to a minimum of 15,736 lb according to the F.3 flight manual. As it is a minimum value the normal value will be a bit higher (the minimum value will count for engine variance / wear, etc.), so we can call it 16,000 lb to match the Tactics manual.
Combat thrust gives you +23°C TBT and results in approximately 16,500 lb installed thrust according to the F.3 tactics manual (exact value is 16,523 according to the Panavia news letter). It is almost certainly talking about installed thrust because it says “available thrust”, and the pilot cares what they have available to them, not what is available on a test bench.
That leaves the question of what this Panavia news letter is talking about:
In my bug report I originally thought it was talking about the combat power setting we’re all talking about, but it’s not. The first clue (that I really should have picked up on at the time) is that it says the combat boost switch was added during Operation Granby, but that can’t have been the case because we have a Tornado F.3 manual from years before Operation Granby which talks about the combat throttle setting:
So what is going on? Well during Operation Granby the RAF wanted to give the F.3 all the help it could get in the hot conditions so a separate switch was added next to the throttle which applied a further TBT increase (+24°) to all ratings (including combat thrust). I think it is this switch which the Panavia news letter is referring to (though slightly understating the level of TBT increase). The RAF also went even further than that and trialled a +48°C engine setting which gave even more thrust (7%), but absolutely destroyed engine life in return.
It’s worth noting that the AHB say the thrust increase of the Granby +24°C engine is 3% rather than 5% in the Panavia news letter. I imagine it varies with the exact conditions so we’ll call it +4% average.
So in summary we have:
- RB199 Mk 104 Uninstalled Max Reheat: 16,400 lb
- RB199 Mk 104 Installed Max Reheat: 16,000 lb
- RB199 Mk 104 Installed Combat Thrust (TBT +23): 16,523 lb
- RB199 Mk 104 Installed Combat Thrust Granby +24 (TBT +23 +24): 17,184 lb (16,523 * 1.04)
- RB199 Mk 104 Installed Combat Thrust Granby +48 (TBT +23 +48): 17,680 lb (16,500 * 1.07)
Then there is the mysterious RB199 Mk 106 engine (a Mk 104 fitted with the improve fan disc of the Mk 105) used only for Operation Granby which increased thrust by an unspecified amount and could be used with any of the TBT settings.
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I believe that is a compound improvement no?
Originally you get a 5% improvement which amounts to 16500lbf
Then in granby a further 3% improvement was added which amounts to a further 17000lbf
I have the same interpretation, this would be the best case scenario for us too…
Thanks for sharing Flame, was the 2G radar first used pre, during, or post Granby?
No really I think that’s just a coincidence. The Panavia news letter seems to be unrelated to the combat throttle setting.
Stage 2G was post-Granby.
Im referring to this. Basic combat thrust gives us 16,500lbf, there is then a further switch for +24 TBT which gives an extra 3%
Which gives a 8.15% compound improvement
Though you appear to have a 4% improvement here?
Combat Throttle setting is approximately 16,500 lb according to the tactics manual (the exact value being 16,523 lb if you listen to the Panavia newsletter). The Granby +24 setting gives either a 3% or 5% improvement over combat, depending on what source you listen to, so I called it a 4% average improvement.
The increase from 15,736 lb to 16,500 lb also being ~5% is a con-incidence as far as I’m concerned.
Yes, im using that 5% sourced mathmatically. But either way if we low ball and say 3% for granby, the total thrust improvement from the basic 15736(which we should really have in game, or close to it), would be 17000lbf
Anyway bit of thermofluids.
Both TBT increases are close at 23 and 24 Kelvin respectively. Their individual increases, whether thats using combat thrust, or reheat in granby will be close, we could assume approximately 5% here because that would satisfy both sources. However the further TBT increase will have a reduced affect, giving a lower further improvement in the realm of 3%. That gives a compound improvement of 8%, however assuming the 7% you mentioned is sources we should use that.
That gives a granby combat of 16837lbf.
A standard combat of 16500lbf
A granby reheat of again 16500lbf
And then original reheat of 15736lbf
We currently have 7,300 kg thrust in game, which is 16,094 lb. The flight manual gives a minimum thrust value of 15,736 lb. IIRC the minimum thrust value for Tornado is considered to be about 1.5% lower than the average thrust value, so that puts the average thrust at about 16,000 lb. So in game thrust is close enough to the likely real value.