That’s fully wrong. Again, take a Su-27 to 3000m and let it go at 700kph IAS. It will do the cobra fine, pitching up to over 90 degree and recover safely WITH THE ENGINES IDLING.
It will lose a lot of altitude and speed, but it will do it fine.
Meanwhile you can give the F-15A the thrust of a saturn V, it won’t do a cobra.
The Su27 does not have a 1:1 thrust and most of its supermaneuvrability is done 50% internal fuel or lower.
The Mig29 can run on full.
Because it does have the same high alpha airfoil technologies as the Mig29 & Su27.
Not even the F-15.
Would you like me to elaborate?
I never said wings are not producing lift when talking about beyond maximum lift.
There are aircraft that will produce their maximum lift at (e.g.) 30 degree AoA but still produce lift (just not their maximum) well over that.
Yes you did and this statement contradicts itself.
There is no longer any lift being generated in angles of attact of 90 degrees.
The reason the Su-27 MIGHT (I don’t know that, we would need to calculate if it could) not able to do the cobra with a lot of weight is because his moment of inertia will be too high (which means less angular acceleration at a given torque), it has nothing to do with his thrust to weight getting lower.
If I have an aircraft that fully stalls out at 30 degrees and make it do a 60 degree pitch up i am doing supermaneuverability per TSAGI definition. The only reasons the value “90” degrees matters are:
it is the maximum angle relative to the ground where natural stability could help an aircraft recover.
It is the value we associate with the cobra.
I said MAXIMUM LIFT, not lift
The Su27 is more than capable it’s just a big girl and needs to drop fuel. All supermaneuverable performance were not conducted on full fuel.
Her Thrust to weight skyrockets at 50% internal flown clean.
30 degrees is not the regime of supermaneuvrability. It’s just high maneuverability.
Supermaneuvrability is 90° alpha and above.
Darn you can’t translate that can you? I will type it for you.
It says, "A technique was suggested for the implementation of one of the supermaneuverable regimes consisting of “dynamic attainment” of high angles of attack of at 90°. This flight regime was tried on aircraft Su-27 and Mig-29 and at present it is performed successfully by these aircraft.
A proper cobra maneuver also known as dynamic deceleration requires 90° and a flare of a little more. That is a maneuver associated with supermaneuvrability aka "dynamic attainment.
there is no more LIFT. there is zero lift in angles of attack at 90° degrees. You are not even going the direction aircraft are supposed to fly. At 90° you are traveling completely the opposite of what lift does.
Do you understand this?
Lift has left the building.
No, that is high maneuverability.
super is at 90 degrees or more.
@MiG_23M will try and say that the Russians did not us the term supermaneuvrability. That is false and unbeknownst to him I studied theology which covers many translations of different languages and figures of speech.
The study is regarding high maneuverability and the author is Russian. If this was a really a mistranslation to English and the Russians never really used the term supermaneuverable…
He would have never differentiated and stated the two by name and defined them both separately.
Everything would have just been stated as “high maneuverability.”
No, I won’t. I’ve actively said that the paper discussed supermaneuverability. You actively tried to say otherwise. Now you’ve flip flopped.
Darn most of it got deleted.
You tried to indicate it was a translation issue then you switched over to
this
It does not matter who coined the word first.
They both of us the word and the definition as its written. TSAGI clearly defines what constitutes supermaneuvrability. The study is regarding high maneuverability and regimes covering up to 60 degrees.
You were shocked and appalled by it.
The dynamic deceleration aka Pugachev’s Cobra requires 90 degrees to be performed correctly or it’s not a cobra. The Fulcrum is capable, no other 4th generation fighter other than the Flanker.
Not your F-18, its best variants or the F-35.
They are not Supermaneuverable.
Nah, it’s still there. You’ll have to scroll up and unhide all your comments
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So, it’s there? You trying to blame the study on a bad English translation? Ok cool, I will just take your word for it.
No, it literally describes supermaneuvrability and how it can be used tactically with the MiG-29 and Su-27. You tried to claim it had nothing to do with supermaneuvrability.
Not again 😭
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That’s literally why I have said earlier supermaneuverability is a vague term, and in different papers is defined in different ways that, in practice, tend to converge but are still different.
You can define supermaneuverability as “achieving 90 or whatever X value degrees AoA”, and then you would consider supermaneuvrable any aircraft that can do that no matter how it does that (in practice 90 degree AoA will always result in flow detachment, but what is important here is that, by that definition, if you could reach 90 degree AoA without flow detachment you would consider that aircraft supermaneuvrable).
Instead the definition that TSAGI presents Is one that is based on the fact that the aircraft can maneuver despite the control surfaces being stalled out, which means that the aircraft is manoeuvring using different principles compared to the conventional ones , and in that case any aircraft that can maneuver after complete stall of his control surfaces is then considered supermaneuvrable (and that’s a deeper concept compared to reaching X value AoA).
Also as far as my English understanding goes here:
It says that supermaneuvrability allows the aircraft to reach ~90 degree AoA, not that reaching 90 degree AoA is what defines supermaneuvrability.
You are misquoting again lol. That was said when I was explaining why THIS:
Is different from THIS:
You can have an aircraft achieving his maximum lift at 30 degree AoA and not stall until over 60 degrees AoA, it’s also something that is ver common in military aircraft
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100000 gorillion posts regarding pedantics. Smartass-cocky comments using bigwords from one party and the plain autism from other party.
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