Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum - History, Design, Performance & Dissection

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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2553

It’s been fixed for a bit now, the way you tag me makes it seem like you’re speaking for me and using me as a source… No bueno

The MiG-29s are as accurate as they’re gonna get for now imo, gaijin needs to better model post-stall and deep stall behavior for fighters with more relaxed stability margins and then it would be 100%.

As of right now, the areas it suffers are irrelevant to normal gameplay outside of maybe some aerobatic performances only doable in the video game (but not useful in a fight).

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2554

F-14 wing sweep in game is more forward than irl with automatic mode… I don’t think it’s overperforming. iirc we looked into this in the past but I’ll take another look this weekend.

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2555

Thanks for the insight. I’m in no way citing you as a source but I’ve seen that you and Giovanex seem by far the most knowledgeable on the matter in this topic.
I do appreciate your work guys, you all did great at improving the game.

2556

There should already be a bug report, (alongside a number of others, which have yet to be actioned but relate to various utility features: AoA Indexer, which fuel tanks should (not) be self sealing, Fuel Totalizer math, etc.) about it from way back when the F-14A was on the dev server, I don’t remember if it was ever actioned.

The source used was the F-14A Utility Preliminary Flight Manual, but in short there are two automatic Wing sweep Schedules, Program One that is optimized for acceleration(Specific Excess Energy), and Program 2 for “available G-loading”.

2558

Hi, not sure if anyone else asked about this before so I figured I’ll do it. Shouldn’t the GSh-30-1 have access to HEFI-T? I’ve been digging around and according to Yefim Gordon’s book there was an option for the ammo. (source attached)
gsh301

2559

image
Yes, good take, and they should remove tracer from AP-T (make it just AP)
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2560

The more I look into this fighter, literally every source from the Western perspective and Eastern experience as well as allied nations experience with it and regardless of myself personal distaste for Mikoyan failed platforms.
The Mig29 is a perfected dogfighter especially for its role.

There is also no legitimate reason at this time that any other brand new Mig29M nor K. (Hear me out)

it is also why all sources point out that upgrades were so few and far between and if any thrust enhancement was carried out, it was recently far down the production run history.

The simple reason the Soviets saw was, no need.
I agree as well because that thrust was so efficient that output did not need to be upgraded even in the SMT with the soviets knowing the of additional weight. It is GJ that still has yet to appreciate aircraft with such capabilities as a 1:1 thrust to weight.

The Mig29’s RD-33s possesses of the highest rated output performance and qualities and directly played a part in defining standard 1:1+ hallmark technologies that make up the 4th generation as only this fighter and the F15 had this performance since prototype and the first batch of serial production deliveries rolled of the line and was second only to the F-15 for years.

To put in perspective, even today those performances are of a capability that many nations struggle to reproduce in their own domestic designs. The countries that can actually design and develop similar high-performance engines are few and have only obtained the ability such as China very recently.

The RD-33 possess thrust to weights far beyond peer fighters such as the F/18C which sits at like 0.96:1 which by the way is said to go up to a 1:12:1 on 50% internal as well as the Su27 with a 1.07:1 with 56% internal fuel and a 0.91:1 with full fuel.

So how the hell is the SMT not performing? As I never dare get in range of a dogfight with 20min and up.

I have not verified the Su27.
But we know it’s a massively larger aircraft made of the exact design philosophies and Technolgies in the Fulcrum, yes, it is aerodynamical perfected and FBW guided, but with a lower thrust weight which carries 3x the amount of R27E variants. What makes any of you think the Fulcrum which has a 1:09:1 from the gate is going to be affected this pathetically in WT even less than 50% internal fuel not have the same effect on the Flanker?

What makes any of you think the Flanker will not suffer like the SMT? This is why this needs to be addressed and heavily scrutinized, the ridiculous idea that upgrades will completely take a Fulcrum to under the level of the weaker powered fully fueled/armed block 10. The SMT literally has no say in a 1v1 vs the F16 of any variant. The fight is completely in the F16s hands at the moment, and it is not historical.

Over what a fuel probe and enlarged 1# fuel tank that is just slightly larger than previous?? No additional fuel pumps were added iirc? So, where is the weight coming from? the avionics? Analog computers especially of military grade by IBM are insanely heavy if anyone has had the opportunity. Just by switching to digital greatly increases room and weight. Just the fact they switched to MFD is the equivalent of just removing the big ugly television tubes displays completely.

Only reason I do not think we should accept this idea is because it is not historical or technical and if the Mig29 SMT performance remains the same, the Flanker will surely fall as well. In which basic conventional lift in wing and even the entirety enhanced aerodynamic integral design that is still an application in 4th and 5th gen of fighters. The significant loss of roll rate and pitch as speeds far slower than any other Mig29. That alpha is limited in degree but is dependent on airspeed and unlike the Mig29G where there is no limit for alpha that is speed dependent as far as I can tell, and I can pull alpha going as fast as I want (not max) but definitely enough to drastically slow the G down. The SMT has no ability to roll or pull any alpha going the same high Mach numbers as the G.

btw the entire time the G is actually heavier over the two when I engage targets, and nothing is felt ever like it is in the SMT. (will explain)

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2561

Didn’t know that… regardless F-14 imho is fine as it is, is just the instructor for both the MiG-29 and F-16 that needs a rework. F-16 now that they have their flight model fixed waste too much energy under 700kph because instructor pulls 23 degrees of AoA.

In general instructor will always favor planes that pull less in terms of energy retention.

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2562

I hope they update their instructors, the problem is that i don’t think there’s a way to report that, it’ll most likely be considered a suggestion.

2563

Anyways, i’m satisfied with the current mig. I’m sure they’ll eventually update the instructor.

2564

Update the instructor? He wants the mig29 to be further limited by the instructor and outright said it. which would allow less alpha depending on airspeed as if the thing has FBW. Completely disregarding what the Mig29 is irl. People are so obsessed with the F-16 they do not realize that they actually want it to be an F-16 and cannot go ten minutes without bringing it up.

That is how the SMT works already and is limited on alpha depending on airspeed as if there is magical FBW telling the jet to disregard your input even though you are yanking aft on the stick as far as possible.

The instructor needs to be reduced as well as true 1:1 capability if we are ever going to get realism out of only of the very few aircraft to be supermaneuverable that are not TVC assisted.

Being an integral design with excessive lift built in the fuselage itself there is absolutely zero reasons why it would not pitch up like ANY other Mig. I already been through this for years the jet will get updated regardless. However, the rate it gets fixed depends on the discussion and push of the community.

The instructor “favors” planes that pull less? No… it “favors” conventional aircraft that can barely pull alpha in the first place so they rarely lose airspeed pulling as hard as possible in turns anyway, and FBW guided aircraft pull the perfect alpha in maneuvers regardless of if they are high alpha capable. That is literally the point of FBW.

See, that is why you want the instructor to limit the Mig29 as a fake FBW to pull less just as you said previously. Even though its fake to do so. Just get better at flying and not pull as much. Gain some skill and monitor the alpha and airspeed like you are supposed to in high alpha fighters not assisted by FBW.

If you want additional training wheels for your mig29, that is fine. But be clear in stating that in your bug reports.

2565

The amount of available pull already scales with speed. People are asking for less pull at high speed so that it may maintain those speeds easier. It would be like allowing the MiG-29 to maintain it’s peak sustained turn rate at 600+ knots and no further, but below 600 knots it would open up and allow the high AoA maneuvers it is known for. This would harm instant turn rate at high speed, but that’s a compromise people are asking for.

There was also discussion about adjusting the instructor pull on the fly. This is something that Gaijin likely won’t do, rather I’d suggest that the standard MiG-29 AoA limiter be put in place and allow pilots to exceed it by pressing a button to turn it on / off. We can already turn SAS to off, dampening, or automatic leveling in full real. Just allow us to do the same thing in mouse aim with SAS on or off, simple as that. Would solve a lot of these complaints and it would be unique to aircraft that have these kinds of systems. For aircraft that don’t we can model a pseudo FCS or not give it to them at all and leave those flight models alone.

In my own personal opinion, the MiG-29 is fine as-is. It performs as it should according to all available charts that I can find and compare. The instructor allows people to pull a lot of AoA as needed, it works great for me. Any suggestion to change how it is now will be nothing more than a suggestion. Gaijin likely won’t acknowledge it or make changes.

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2566

I want the same pull or similar to the G because it is heavier on average that the SMT in RB anyway.

I fly the SMT with 30min internal and 4x72 and 2R27E variants that is well over 2,000lbs on the wings.
I makes sure I am under 18min before engaging in dogfights. I make sure the R27s are launched. The SMT still suffers unless 8mins or under.

The G with a 30 min and a drop tank 4x72 and 2R27E variants that is well over 2,000lbs on the wings can enter dogfights at 28 mins and still have R27s and not suffer to any significant degree like the SMT.
I have went out with 20min fuel because the RD-33 series II and still have to burn fuel off to get Mig29 performance.

Even this is not totally historical either that you must wait until fuel has burned under full for the Mig29.

Mikoyan intentionally designed the Mig29 to be allowed the perfect amount of capacity to be able cover the combat radius for the task at hand and can sit full and have no detrimental effect on the flight performance. The jet was not originally designed and put into service to fly way out to operation in a strategic theatre to conduct operations and fly the entire way back in the first place, because it was already designed to carry just the right amount of internal fuel and still be combat effective while retaining its high performance that was required as a quick reaction force unit on the frontline. A Point Defense Fighter.

2567

The ranges at which we compete and engage each other are predominantly considered within visual range. The square miles it covers should technically and historically be ideal combat radiuses for the Mig29 and a literal home field advantage.

Because this specific platform, a Frontal Aviation asset was designed to take off from the very near the front similar to the ranges each base is currently set from each other in game and immediately be on top of an opponent before they ever knew it and can run, but is now too close do anything about it, due to the immense performance (Earliest in service product of the Fulcrum) because the thing practically came out the box with high off boresight capability and looking up IRST ACM mode scanned upward as default to take off flying very low and fast and detect & target without possibility of compromise.

Original Mig29 was already purposely designed not to have too much fuel but just enough with no extra fat which is a just minor extra pinch on the already over the top dogfight performance, It was not critical to the alpha capability and roll rate to such a degree as seen in the SMT. Had it been true, Mikoyan would have never developed the SMT if it meant a total loss of what the Fulcrum was designed for.
It is just a dumb idea giving the Fulcrum any combat radius would mean a total loss in its specialized dogfight purity for a role that any Flanker can beat anyway.

The true purpose of the modernization was to bring the Fulcrum’s specialized design in close quarters to any perceived strategic theatre outside the Soviet Union.

2568

https://forum.warthunder.com/t/incorrect-thrust-of-the-mig-29-engine/30523/16

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2569

Personally, I think it might be MiG-29K (9-41R) from Russian Navy

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2570

The Fulcrum’s design was so overly intended for the dogfight as upmost priority, that even landing back at your operating airfield was somewhere down the list and not a priority. That the technology in the airfoil of the Mig29 specifically serves to further over enhances the Mig29 to the point that it can be considered supermaneuverable. How many 4th generation fighters without TVC are considered supermaneuverable?

The lack of priority for the Mig29 in even making it back to original airfield should be remembered as another unique design we will never see again is it was of a Cold War mentality of the Soviet Union. Which bred remarkable fighters like the Mig29 for the frontal aviation point defense role. The F-16 was originally designed as a pure dogfighter as well, but it was fined tuned to maintain it’s size (which was a fighter mafia requirement)

that permanent expansion of any internal fuel tank would greatly degrade digitally aerodynamic design of the aircraft and require a messnew software upgrades aw well by General dynamics to regard the that which was already been precisely maximized. That is why the F-16s in game flies noticeably degraded with Sparrows even after launch and Aim-120s are placed on tips first. It is a perfected design but actually meant to fly very clean on the wings. That is the downside of FBW in that very little can be changed on the actual airframe. That is why the Israelis designed conformal fuel tanks as well.

Been looking into this Mig29 and SMT dilemma a lot lately. It is a dilemma because if we accept this SMT model as is over an irrelevant 2,000 pounds over the max power of the RD-33 engines and afterburning output that we are constantly using still puts the SMT at least over a 1.01:1 the lesser powered Flanker will suffer. It needs to be addressed now in the SMT.

2571

I’m not gonna bother reading the wall of text after the first one you sent, it’s such a simple issue. The wall of text is totally unnecessary to get your point across.

The MiG-29SMT is not pulling less with instructor because it’s more limited, rather because it pulls less due to the change in weight and center of gravity. It’s just not as good as the MiG-29G. Expecting it to perform as well kinematically is just an unrealistic expectation. The issue you claim will affect the flanker is not a real issue.

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2573

I’ve test flown the MiG-29G and the MiG-29SMT fully upgraded, I’ve looked at the FM files. I know what I’m talking about and it’s based on tangible evidence. You need not play the game countless hours and matches every week just to earn the right to speak on the forum as you’ve insinuated in the past.

Though if that’s the requirement I’ve done nothing but exceed it.

-this is on topic-

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2575

I don’t think that’s really relevant to the topic, but in my defense I work a full time job and part of that job requires me to work long hours or be away from my computer for long periods of time. I’m not always able or willing to put hundreds of matches down a month. Not everyone working full time wants to come home and play the game. There’s nothing wrong with spending your free time doing other things, like sharing your knowledge or discussing REAL problems.

It’s not relevant to the discussion how much I play anyway, my opinions are based on something tangible and not emotional. You want the MiG-29 to be more than it is now… unfortunately for you it is performing as accurately as we can get it and there is little headroom to improve it further.

I’d appreciate it if you took a less hostile approach to conversation.