A nice read, but I don’t think this source is worth anything.
That specific report is cited by the DOD multiple times and had formed a basis for future improvements to the F16. It’s also more valuable than just about any of our opinions on the Mig29’s capabilities.
I sure it was cited - that doesn’t mean it’s 100% accurate though does it? Citations can also be to disagree with previous claims.
You think that the opinions of a civilian aviator, who was flown in a two-seater mig29 without using the afterburner once, are the best opinions we have on the mig29?
lol
yeah, uh. he wasn’t an actual fighter pilot and was backseating. i don’t think this helps.
So, massive skill (drag) issue? On minimum fuel, only taking two R-60Ms, I got 20.2 degrees at 460 km/h in the 9.13, worse than the F-15A (clean, min fuel) with around 22 degrees per second of rate.
And you’re providing what to disagree, besides your opinion?
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You think that the opinions of a civilian aviator, who was flown in a two-seater mig29 without using the afterburner once, are the best opinions we have on the mig29?
lol
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It is better than anyone who has no experience flying a fighter in real life, which is most of us on this forum. You took what I said out of context and are acting like I said his opinion was the penultimate opinion on the Mig29s capabilities, which I did not.
Can’t get quoting to work on mobile.
It is pulling significantly more AoA for a negligible benefit in turn rate.
Any amount of tightening down a turn in the MiG-29 causes it to shed orders of magnitude more speed than it used to. The entire efficiency of the wing has been reduced so much that the MiG-23MLA is arguably better than the MiG-29 in a dogfight because it doesn’t lose speed nearly as fast and can maintain a higher turn rate.
Lets quantify the differences since you seem to have a reading comprehension issue.
Old FM
6.3 AOA
23.1 Degrees Per Second Turn
+352 m/s SEP
New FM
8.1 AOA
23.9 Degrees Per Second
-146 m/s SEP
So the new FM gains a whopping .8 degrees per second at this one speed…and has a -498 m/s difference in Specific Excess Power.
As far as the flight model being accurate; Gaijin considered the old flight model to be accurate as well for basically an entire year. We also know that Gaijin doesn’t necessarily do a good job of modeling SEP…i.e see the Gripen defying the laws of physics or the low Oswald Efficiency of the Su-27.
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The graphs posted in the mig29 thread.
I’m not the one claiming the mig29 is underperforming though, you are. So you’re the one who has to provide sources, and so far you haven’t provided a good one to back your claim.
You’re aware that after the soviet union collapsed and East/West Germany reunited, the West was able to robustly test the mig29 performance and document it? The sources are in the mig29 thread.
Don’t worry, the mobile version of the forum isn’t great to operate.
1.8 more g isn’t negligible tbh.
I’ll take that as a compliment coming from you.
The issue isn’t the sustained turn rates. The issue is the amount of drag when pulling in initial turns. The new MiG-29 flight model loses speed much more quickly than the old one and it means you are no longer competitive against F-16 in initial turns.
This is good video of MiG-29 vs F-16 flight models before the MiG-29 was nerfed and F-16A was buffed.
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1.8 more G for a whole .8 degrees per second turn rate.
The whole entire efficiency of the air frame was nerfed into the ground.
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Nuh uh :3
I don’t understand why so many people miss the turn rate and speed figures needed to categorize SEP. I can pull 15dg/s at 600km/h, or I can pill 15dg/s at 900km/h. You get two DRASTICALLY different figures, and to compare them to each other would be stupid.
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The drag induced speed loss in turns had changed after Sons of Atilla. The nerf massively changed the flight performance of the 29. I believe incorrectly so based on the data I have seen posted in numerous forum posts on the topic. The energy retention does not track with numerous graphs I have seen and the datamines posted in the bug forum.
Here’s a
more relevant experience with the Mig29 by a CAF pilot. Good reading.
I’d love to provide more citations and links to posts but I’m a bit limited at the moment. You have replied to the MIG29 Historical post, so you know of all the data provided there.
All signs point to the Mig29 having excellent energy retention, but it’s not so in game.
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Your figures are irrelevant without speed.
The speed is literally in the picture. You can just scroll up.
…
We don’t need to do math.
The turn rate and g forces are literally in the picture.
The MiG-29 flight model was nerfed into the ground. It’s SEP values / airframe efficiency was greatly reduced to the point that it’s practically useless in a dogfight.
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its not useless
What planes do you think that the MiG-29 has a chance against in a dogfight? I am curious.
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the 12.7 one or the 12.0 one
both can do pretty well