What differences should there be?
Used to be
LIC had stronger turret armor long ago before it got nerf
None really.
But there was at one point.
Yeah, but people complained.
And now we have nothing.
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I have seen up to 74 tons in internet articles that mention the IDF, but are not direct sourced from them so that is hearsay with little value. Can you post an actual source for your 80 ton statement from IDF personnel?
I am not saying I know the weight, but you throw around alleged facts pretty easily. If Gaijin bites on this and increase the weight, what do you expect? Drastically more armor or a pig that wallows around and still has huge weak spots that will never be disproven due to classification? Does the Namer current armor situation in game give you a hint how this would go without real, verifiable proof of not only overall weight but specific armor weight and composition? Which you do not have.
Your approach with your weight statement threatens to make these tanks even worse ( hard to believe that is possible, but feed the Snail and see what happens….ask the Chally 2 crowd).
Yes, I can find a source, but it may take a while. Also, once again, need I remind you that in-game, the difference between the Merkava Mk.1 and the Merkava Mk.4 is only 2 tons. You and I both know that is incorrect on the highest degree.
Found the source already.
The IDF posted it themselves as the title and description of a video.
If you need more, then here’s more.
This one refers to the Merkava as “around 80 tons”.
At 1:02 in this video, the Narrator refers to the Merkava as 82 tons.
That’s 3 separate credible sources
Gaijin did temporarily buff the Merkava’s armor on one DEV server, but didn’t implement the changes since the vehicle as listed in-game is too light for armor coverage to have that added.
1500 horsepower with that transmission doesn’t make the Merkava slow.
Also, are you really against a vehicle being historically accurate just because it might get slightly sluggish? And what weakspots? Even the turret ring still has a LOS of around 200-300mm of composite.
Videos of this vehicle taking hits from Kornets and Tandem RPG weapons we know are roughly on par with an RPG-29, which has roughly 600mm of RHA penetration, exist on the internet and can easily be found. As it stands in-game, the Namer can’t stop even the M22 on the side.
It’s not hard to use something called “Deductive Reasoning” to realize the armor on the side and rear should be thicker based on the combat environment and videos online. Tha Namer proved itself all the way back in Operation Protective Edge as an extremely durable vehicle. It’s not just hearsay to call it that.
How? How is pointing out a glaring historical flaw in the Israeli Merkava models going to make the game worse?
The Merkava can stop a Kornet. Gaijin has acknowledged this for 9 months now. The Namer, even assuming they’re nearly the same weight like in-game, should also reasonably be able to stop a Kornet.
It has done so in real life AND has armor 20-40 years newer than a Challenger 2.
I’m sorry, but the Challenger, while less durable than it should be in-game, is not as durable as a vehicle that’s significantly newer or internally better. The Merkava 4 is a much newer vehicle overall than the Challenger and has higher tech inside it, it should be better.
That’s just logical. As far as I’m aware, the Merkava has also been in more combat.
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Thanks for your sources. I am still concerned that if the 80 tons goes through that you may be surprised what comes with it.
As far as the 1500 HP engine, it is straight forward math that the HP/ton which is a good measure of part of a tank’s agility goes down from 23 HP/ton for a 65.5 ton vehicle to 18.75 HP/ton for a 80 ton vehicle…that is a drastic difference in performance that would not be good in top tier. Just for a reference, the Challenger 2 TES, which is widely talked about as slow and nonagile in game with armor that falls way below realism (per common sense and “informal” sources) has an engine of approximately 1217 HP and a weight of 74.8 tons which gives a ratio of 16 HP/ton. The baseline Challenger 2 has 1217 HP and weighs 67.4 tons for a ratio of 18 HP/ton. The Leopard 2A7V has 1500 HP and weighs 64.1 tons, so 23 HP/ton. So going from today, we have Leopard 2A7V levels of HP/ton and we would go to Chally 2 levels with the weight change. Gearing factors into this, but that is a HUGE change gameplay wise. I hope the armor gains offset the slowness…the Challenger 2 game reality definitely does not support that in game.
Since Gaijin seems to cherry pick and be inconsistent in what they implement for realistic or real world data, I am still very concerned over what the weight change would do in game. I agree with your reply about both Merkava and Namer video evidence and common sense on their higher armor thickness/effectiveness, but the point I am making is that Gaijin chooses to not be convinced on that even though they should. Again, maybe by some chance your 80 ton argument makes Gaijin increase the armor, but my point is that maybe yet again they ignore the obvious deduction of more and better armor and only inflict the HP/ton decrease on the Merkava 4s. I hate to say it, but that is a real possibility and it would make a bad situation even worse.
My point with the Chally’s from my original post was about this…the Chally users offered numerous realistic and common sense reports about their vehicles and they received a mish mash of “fixes” that many believe made the vehicles worse not better even though the evidence showed otherwise. Gaijin cherry-picks what they want and ignore the rest…so all I am saying is beware what you ask for (reality or not).
Anyway, thanks again for the sources and I hope you get what you want out of this. I definitely would like the Merkava 4s to be more competitive in this game.
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While the mobility will go down, that won’t be a problem. The 1500 horsepower and transmission will still keep it up with many vehicles. As my Merkava sits currently, I can actually keep up with the M1A1 Abrams and beat the M1A2. As for the armor, the projected thickness Gaijin had was 750~ on the turret face. That’s all I know. It would make it the strongest turret in-game. The Merkava will be the toughest vehicle in-game up to date. It also has the newest and most advanced armor. SLERA is a super hybrid of ERA and NERA that’s brand new and extremely good. It should be Russian Relikt on crack with mutli-hit capability.
Gaijin has known since the vehicles were added roughly 3 years ago. They just don’t care, which in my opinion, makes these vehicles no better than the removed fake tanks. The Namer was so horribly modeled it isn’t even funny.
Gaijin previously stated that the Merkava couldn’t get an armor buff because the armor coverage for a 65-ton tank was too spread out to be as strong as they were planning to put it. Since they ignored the weight bug reports, Gaijin simply left it with paper armor.
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It doesn’t make any sense. Gaijin will only happily turn Mercava 4 into another challenger 2OES/TES, and will not adjust any of its protection capabilities. Unless you can take out any confidential information to confirm its protection. This is Gaijin.
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I would rather have:
-80 tons
-750mm KE turret
-550mm KE hull
Than:
-65 tons
-500mm KE turret
-350mm KE hull
I would rather have the Merkava be the “heavy tank” of Top Tier, being a bit slower than average but being near immune on the other hand… than the current pseudo-MBT we’ve got.
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The truth is that they could improve the armor of many modern tanks. It is clear that to a large extent it is much more difficult to give the correct armor to Western tanks than to Russian tanks, since in many the data is secret and it is only possible make assumptions. Even so, the armor should be improved in a more credible way.
That would be nice to see and a reasonable trade. What Gaijin will probably deliver:
80 tons with resultant decrease in speed and agility
550-575mm KE turret
400mm KE hull
With significant breech weak spots
I just do not know what history of Gaijin and this game people are looking at to make people think the Merkava would get that big fix. Has any tank’s armor, especially a minor nation in game, ever received a change of this magnitude in armor in a positive direction? People keep arguing this is what it should be or what I want. Cool, again the track record shows that all I can do is wish you luck with that. Not rooting against you, hope you get what is realistic and what you hope for. Keep fighting.
Back when it was introduced, M1A2’s LOS turret cheek armor was its 60º value, meaning it was underperforming by 100mm.
All of the Abrams tanks also had their hulls underperforming by 50mm…
It took them over a year to fix it (September 2020), but they eventually did!
So there’s always hope.
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Ah, look at this… Merkava’s right front sponson armor gives us a glimpse of what the whole UFP should be…
Unfortunately, for some reason, it’s just the right sponson front armor. Then the actual hull goes down by 33%.
EDIT: This is only on LIC lol, M and B don’t have that stronger sponson.
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Always wondered what the in game differences were between those two Mk.4Bs, other a slight visual change or two around the sights and exhaust if I recall.
Random Q for ya (if you by any chance you know the answer to it): Is there anything else that should be different between them in game or are they pretty realistic as is being near carbon copies.
In reality the mk4 lic has a special steel mesh protecting the optics on the tank but other than that there is no other difference.
That was the only difference I was aware of (along with the mine protection modification). Honestly they probably should have just made it a modification for the Mk4B given how little differences there are between the two.
400 is too low for 80 tons. It’s almost double the T-72 in weight. I’d personally suggest 600mm hull.
well you use the misslie that pen 1200mm in any range and armor is only 927mm so that is normal
here is my test with the top round
No kidding…you need to listen. I AM TALIKING ABOUT WHAT GAIJIN WILL DO. Not what makes sense.
Keep dreaming about the BIG changes though. The Gaijin track record totally supports that. /s