Meet Nuclear Escalation: Vietnam!

Did it ever occur to you that those IR seeker heads are so garbage, you can use dumb fire rockets in place of flares?

Most of the concern in equipment balance is going to come down to player awareness and intentions. It sucks that US strikers are the only planes with competitive missiles, but they only get those because they’re a last ditch effort to get planes off of you. Their primary responsibility is ground strike anyways. If you are intentionally taking them to go fight off hostile air, that is entirely down to your choice of doing so, picking the right moment, and dealing with the concequences.

I will, however, agree with you on the decision to have the Shilka as the primary SHORAD while BLUFOR opposition doesn’t get anything that can see in J band, just as much as the M163 doesn’t become a valid target until it is actively seeking a plane. As historically authentic it is, gameplay shouldn’t be sacrificed unless the authenticity is taken to 100%, and it is disclosed up front and center. Using the ZSU-37-2 or the PGZ09 for REDFOR and the AMX-30 S or GEPARD for BLUFOR, would have been more appropriate for the ARMs available within the bracket.

Exactly what I have suggested myself (personally I think the zsu-37-2 and amx-30s dca is the best fit)

And for the 1980s preset, I think the osas and rolands in convoys should be replaced with the pgz-04a and the gepard 1a2. They get manpads missiles that are short range and easy to dodge if you are paying attention, as opposed to the osa’s 10km undodgable death sphere

1 Like

I very much disagree that it would be better with a SP cost instead of SL cost, since it would remove a part of the player base from playing the later parts of the gamemode.

In both scenarios, they would loose their way to spawn because they would be constantly dying without gaining any SL/SP back. In the case of SL, they could have 10mil in their account, and be allowed to spawn constantly for the entirety of the 1,5hr game. However for the SP system, they would then be kicked out of the game after maybe 3-5 deaths.

How would you then balance the starting amount + SP gain, if you have to let both bad and good players have as even playing field as possible, instead of it becoming a steamroll? We actually saw this with the nukes in this iteration of Nuclear Escalation, with people gaining nukes, just need to drop it to have enough SP to spawn another one.

While I do think for some people that the SL cost could be lowered, there should still be a penalty for dying, without blocking your ability to play the gamemode.

4 Likes

I got a better idea; give a better incentive to play for survivability.

The game already tracks the ability to return to base thanks to awards like Soft Landing. An easy way to do this is to introduce a “Sortie Complete” achievement, which grants a small SL and RP bonus if you eliminate a ground target and safely return to base. The reward scales with the more targets you destroy on that run, as well as continuing to utilize the same spawned aircraft on repeat sorties.

It would need a lot of planning to ensure it wouldn’t break the economy, but negative incentives aren’t exactly the most well received approach by players, at least not without good reason and practicality.

6 Likes

I have Enjoyed every moment of this event (yes even the buggy parts, and learning curve). Playing with a full squad in this mode was unlike anything i’ve ever experienced in war thunder and actually, i am convinced this game mode can and will have an incredible impact on the variety of the player base. I convinced 3 friends of mine (who once wrote off warthunder as a frustrating game many years ago) to give this event a try and squad up with. Now they can’t wait for this to become permanent, and even spent money in game to talisman aircraft and buy premium in preparation for this awesome game mode to come back! Above all else, this is the most competitive game mode in warthunder buy a laughable margin. Once you realize just how beneficial it is to have a communicative squad the game changes completely. it goes from “oh no why do i keep dying to aa” or “let me destroy everyone i see as a single player team deathmatch” to “let me focus on destroying the aa and nothing else while my other friend focuses on destroying the rest of the convoy unimpeded, all whilst being escorted by two squad fighters to deter or contest other ground attackers/fighters”.

it was an incredible experience, and I can’t wait to play again! my buddies are all on board! Infact their sparked interest only proves to me that a game mode like this is not only healthy for us “obsessed/veteran” players, but also for those who disliked warthunder long ago, or have yet to try it!

if it can get my extremely stubborn friends (when it comes to game taste) to change their mind about warthunder to the point of dropping money into it, then it only goes to show the monumental impact this game mode can have on the community as a whole. I imagine it would take time to get used to, like the jump from Arcade to Realistic was when first starting out. but in my opinion Nuclear escalation will become the next stepping stone that most players will make. Playing air RB will be to prepare your line up and skills for Nuclear Escalation.

3 Likes

If you read my entire suggestion, you would see there would be multiple planes that would have a 0 SP cost, and 1 free plane given to the player with a 0 SP cost in case their lineup contained no 0 SP planes.

Starting SP would be 0.

Sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent a steamroll. But at least in this scenario, the steamroll would be greatly delayed and potentially even stopped due to the SP limits. Compared to now, all you need is a few thousand SL and you can just respawn your MiG-25 and go right back to killing people. Where as with my suggestion, the MiG-25 would be much more incentivized to RTB in order to save their SP, thus removing them from the battle for a few minutes and allowing the enemy team room to breath.

Again, there would be other vehicles available without a spawn cost. The only vehicles I am suggesting a spawn point cost for in part 1 are heavy fighters, and advanced weaponry.

This is also a great idea. The reward for a safe landing must be greater than simply respawning and going for another sortie, however.

Lol what?

Okay first, you are assuming Im bad or cant avoid them. You are wrong on both counts.

Secondly, what you said does not change what I said.

I can avoid them just fine. That doesnt mean that I think they are a fun or interesting gameplay mechanic.

Nor did you address the fact that its still limiting useful weapon loadouts to long range guided weaponry. Trying to get a plane thats only got dumb bombs to a ammo depot in the first half of the game can be very frustrating

1 Like

That’s your opinion. I find it an interesting and engaging PvE aspect and it is a PvPvE gamemode after all. It adds depth and purpose for players by providing SEAD/DEAD objectives.

Yeah, it’s a defense system meant to defend those AI positions. That’s why you must have some people on your team committed to taking out those sites, which you can within the first 5 minutes of the match by the way.

My early game mostly consisted of taking a Buccaneer with 2x ARMs and dumb bombs (or 4x ARMs if I couldn’t be sure other people on the team were engaging sites) and I’d always take out 1-2 frontline radars within the first 5-10 minutes of the game.

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Yeah, sometimes I’d get shot down by HAWK as my ARMs would still be travelling while I’d be groundpounding stationary AI defensive positions or depots, but that is quite literally what they’re meant to be doing. CAS shouldn’t be danger free, and the danger shouldn’t rest on players alone.

It’s really not as bad as you’re picturing it.

1 Like

What Pervitin does to an Ostwind crew

2 Likes

Full feedback from more than a few matches, and I’m disappointed that this is the best the devs can come up with after 9 months of apparently working on nothing else.

AI Balance

This is a massive issue that needs to be addressed urgently. The AI SPAAGs are still as overpowered as they have always been over the past 5 years. If anything, they’ve gotten worse, because they can now shoot down incoming missiles. Time and time again the effectiveness of AI controlled SPAAGs have been brought up, often referred to as “death-spheres” for good reason. You enter within their engagement radius, and you die.

Non-radar assisted SPAAGs (whether that be because of a lack of radar or the radar has failed to locked onto a target) have greater effective range than some SAMs in GRB have, and even those with a radar, don’t always use it to give you an RWR warning.

Changes that must be made:

  • AI MUST use radar if available before being able to fire
  • AI without a radar should have heavily limited range (1-2km at most) with heavy accuracy penalities
  • With or without radar, the accuracy of the fire needs to be mitigated, I would suggest using the same code added to the naval AA recently to add induced spread.

It is time the devs stop ignoring the playerbase about this issue, because I don’t know how many more times we can bring up this issue, whether in regard to NE or ASB. It has definitely been a consistent complaint in all the previous NE events, but has still yet to be addressed. This time round is especially apparent, because many aircraft are attacking with unguided weapons and cannot avoid the death-spheres. This renders the aircraft basically unplayable in a ground attack role.

Doesn’t even really change when talking about other types of AA. The Hawks start firing at you the moment your wheels leave the runway, the SACLOS SAMs on the Charles F Adams are laser accurate, and basically impossible to dodge, if you get any warning at all. (This is the same issue with OSA at the higher BRs, so it’s clear no feedback has been considered regarding that)

So overall, every single PvE target having aimbots just isn’t fun and renders a lot of aircraft unplayable due to this.

Carrier vs Carrier

I genuinely do not understand how such a glaring and obvious imbalance made it into the game. Baku does not have a catapult, meaning most naval aircraft cannot take off from it without a massively lightened payload and using every inch of space. Forestall has a catapult, everything can take off from it easily.

This gives Bluefor side a massive advantage when it comes to attacking naval targets and flanking the battle. Also the carriers are generally a lot safer to take off from than the airfields, as they are better protected and less likely to be nuked.

Let alone arrestor wires to allow the carrier aircraft to land back onto the carrier after a sortie.

Now the soviets lack any meaningful naval aircraft at or around this BR, so for them it wouldn’t necessarily matter, but many bluefor nations are always paired with the soviets, and so this blocks them from using their carrier aircraft from a carrier. Either enforce true Bluefor vs Redfor, or add a Catabar carrier to both sides or neither side.

Anti-Naval

I really don’t know how I feel about the anti-naval role. On one hand, it’s fine. Spawn in, fire off some ASMs, and you’ve killed some naval targets. Sometimes they snipe every single ASM out the sky, sometimes they don’t. It’s random.

But good luck using any bombs against them, between the SACLOS SAMs and the HE-VT, you aren’t getting close. It’s basically impossible. This renders naval targets basically un-attackable if you don’t have ASMs, and a lot of aircraft don’t have ASMs.

Then after all that, the rewards are pitiful. Basically none

And Carriers…. Well Carriers have always had stupid damage models, been brought up 100 times before, never got fixed when naval AI actually got proper damage models like 3 years ago. Basically the only way to sink them is to drop dozens of bombs on their deck, or nail the turrets (at least on the Forestall) and start a fire. ASM is basically a waste of time to use against them.

All the while, you have aimbot accurate HE-VT being fired at you. (I think it might even be hit-scan and not even modeling actual shells hitting you, so it’s largely impossible to dodge)

So overall, it’s usually not worth going after the Carriers, sink everything else with ASMs from a safe distance and then just leave the Carriers alone.

The match cycle

The match cycle is pretty boring overall. You spawn in your aircraft, if its CAS, you pray you have some sort of guided weapon to deal with SPAA, if not, get ready for a lot of Kamikaze runs. If you are CAP, then it’s an easier time, but then again, the BR range is compressed to hell, and the devs won’t fix that. So you might be hopelessly outclassed in A2A combat.

Once you eventually get enough SP for a nuke carrier, all CAS aircraft become obsolete. Why take the risk of using unguided bombs or rockets against a depot or convoy when you can just throw a nuke at it. Let alone the Airfields which can only be damaged by nukes. Even the SAM sites, if you can get close enough to deal with, are easier to take out with a nuke than any other non-ARM weapon.

Then the match ends not that long after that. What should be quite a drawn out, enduring conflict-esq gamemode, becomes a short, arcadey gamemode with little in the way of actual tactics or gameplay.

Economy.

The issue is that the gamemode is ENTIRELY balanced around throwing nukes at each other and an assumption that each nuke drop is going to take out a lot of AI, probably an Airfield and maybe even a few players on said airfield. It is not at all balanced around the idea of dropping a 1x 1000lb bomb onto a tank, or firing some ASMs or even ARM at targets, and just walking away with a few AI kills per sortie. You get basically no RP, and the SL rewards are low, and that’s without factoring in the repair costs which are high, and due to the overtuned AI, very common.

The SL and RP rewards need a significant increase to actually make the gamemode viable as a method of actually grinding a tech tree, rather than it just being a sandbox gamemode which you are only playing for the fun of it.

BR ranges

The chosen BR ranges result in some aircraft being good, and others DOA, and if it remains with static BRs, then you will have your Meta aircraft, and then nothing else. The solution though exists. It’s in ASB, and is one of the only good things the devs have ever actually done for ASB in the past decade. Rolling BR brackets. Every 48 hours, what is meta changes, good aircraft become bad, and bad aircraft become good. Everything gets a turn.

This is the only fair thing to do.

Lag/Server issues

I have yet to have a single match where it didn’t lag out, or there wasn’t massive desync that made the SPAA look like it was firing in the opposite direction but still hit you. I have a solid connection most of the time, usually no issue at all. But NE, lag fest every time.

RWR

RWR spam is far less prominent at these lower BRs, especially with the reduced number of things pinging the RWR, but it is still time for an RWR overhaul, with filter options, a few times so far ive missed an RWR warning because it was buried under a dozen others.

Let alone the issue of trying to play anything that doesn’t even have a radar, especially if its a medium - high alt aircraft. Tried to take the Lightning F6 out, and immediately got killed by a Hawk. No warning, no defence, just dead.

Conclusion.

Fun for 1 match, if you are in the mood, but boring after 2 or 3 matches. Even playing different aircraft, trying different things…. Just…. Gets old quickly.

Too much emphasis is placed on being in a nuke carrier, and none is placed on being in anything else.

And the worst part, I feel like I’m not contributing if im doing anything other than playing a nuke carrier. I can take out multiple SAMs, I can take out the entire enemy fleet, I can go hunting players, etc etc. and unless im throwing nukes at Airfields, I might as well just be sat AFK, because im not really helping much, other than drawing attention away from anyone in a nuke carrier.

So what would I change.

  • Fix the stupid SPAAG code to get rid of Death Spheres. Seriously, 5 years of complaints and it still hasn’t been fixed in a gamemode all about SEAD.
  • Get rid of Nukes, or at least make them really really expensive so they are rarely seen.
  • If Nukes remain, Add nukes to all aircraft that can carry them as a loadout option, so you aren’t dependent on a level 1 pilot, no modifications and no CMs. Potentially even a weak aircraft on top of that.
  • Add proper objectives to attack with conventional weapons, we have seen refineries and large factories from the SEAD and Deep-Strike event prior to Nuclear Thunder and then never seen them ever again. Why? Rather than destroying Airfields being the objective, it should be to destroy these heavily defended targets
  • Add CBUs, especially anti-Runway weapons such as JP233, to replace nukes for damaging Airfields.
  • Increase the map size. I still don’t know why NE is on a postage stamp sized map, when the map is huge
  • Rebalance naval, make sure both sides are on an equal footing. Either replace BAKU with something with Catabar, or remove Forestall and replace it with something that lacks Catabar.
  • Overhaul Carrier damage models
  • Remove the ability for Ai ships to repair, so a hit is a hit, and maybe even a fatal hit
  • Add rolling BR brackets, like we have in ASB.

This could be a fun gamemode you could play over and over again, but right now. Just like every other gamemode, it is fun for 1 match, but then gets stale after the second.

10 Likes

They can easily fix this by adding the human error, humans cannot react so fast or even aim that good to intercept some munitions.

If we get rid of bombs completely I believe the game mode should change name, so I believe let’s keep the nukes but as you said extremely expensive 3000 sp or even more and you spawn (depends on the ERA) with a bomber that has 1 nuke powerful to destroy 1 base like the first NE with TU-95 and B-52 full of electronic countermeasures and by destroying any Airfields it won’t lose the enemy team any points

I believe Bullet Hull, SEAD, Deep-Strike and Air Assault should rotate every 48 hours between them, as we all know Air Assault is a dead game mode, (same with Ground assault getting rotate with Advance)

Agree, pls AFDS. But also ASM for more nations

Yea all the mountain range is empty they should put objectives there too it’s a waste or space

Yea when they add the Exocets I don’t want to do 2 runs to kill one ship because when I was playing with the SU-34 a ship survived multiple (12) ASMs

100%

2 Likes

Well put!

While we shouldn’t have braindead AI AA, current SPAAs (looking at you M163) just feel like they are extremely overperforming. Some sort of accuracy probability logic should be coded in, burst times should be lessened considerably and munition interception by SPAA should only take place in much higher BRs where more advanced munitions are commonplace (and such munition interception also needs to be tuned down).

I am also under the impression that the long range AN/TPS-59 / Nebo / CWAR / REDFOR CWAR counterpart (I forgot what it’s called) radars serve no purpose in the match. I don’t see the difference between them being active or not. At a glance, they just seem like… useless AI units sitting out there to be farmed?

And I did find it ridiculous how they didn’t fix rewards for naval. In all previous test runs, it was clear that it’s a useless component in the gamemode as it yields no SL/RP/SP/Score or depletes the enemy team of tickets in a manner worth the time it takes to conduct ASW.

As for the elephant in the room - nukes need their cost increased considerably. Rewards should not be balanced around people constantly nuking AI stacks. Just as nukes are hard to achieve in GRB, the same should apply to Nuclear Escalation - I personally suggested to increase the SP cost by at least double of what they currently are (maybe even triple!).

Rebalancing the nuke costs allows to rebalance the economy so that strike aircraft and bombers can still have a purpose throughout most of the game. As it stands, as soon as the escalation levels rise, they become almost pointless.

5 Likes

Firing in bursts instead of a continuous beam of fire is a good shout, in addition to accuracy changes.

They are suppose to stop the near by SAMs from ebing able to fire if destroyed, but im not convinced it actually does.

1 Like

I have been reliably getting 100k+ SL per match without dropping a single nuke

It would be weird if you weren’t! I’d love to see some battle logs breaking that down btw.

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each S-75 tracking radar is 5k SL on its own, and each Kh-58 can take out that + the search radar + 2 launchers consistently thanks to its large warhead

after those are gone, a pair of Kh25MLs can then be used on the next S-75 site to take out the Osa and then the tracking radar, or alternatively both launched at the ZSU-23-4 and you gun down whatever else you want; you can even use Kh-58 against the Osa instead and use something else on the radars (in order to save the second Kh-58 for the next site, or if you no longer have a second one).

It really felt like completing a puzzle to attack them successfully and reliably.

there’s a total of 8 S-75/HAWK sites per side, so plenty of earnings possible

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this is what a typical results screen looked like (if you die less, or join a fresher match, or have better luck with your attacks, of course more profit can be made)
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NE was great fun, there’s much fewer look-down radars so in a very fast plane like Su-22 you can comfortably cruise behind enemy lines at low altitude, and then make an exit while outrunning almost everything else. Which is pretty realistic, USSR’s whole shtick with this and MiG-27 was low-altitude penetration attacks. It’s also something you almost never get to do in Air RB since the maps are much smaller there.

3 Likes

This is mind boggling. I mean, I’ve played a lot doing DEAD duty mostly with Martels and doing deck gun runs in a Jaguar to eliminate the radar modules, so I know how much money you can make off site elimination, but I think you are quite the outlier considering you have ARMs that will not only blow up the acquisition radar, but also everything else on the site…?

Not everything else, there’s ~4 launchers left as well as both SPAA. In return Buccaneer and others can carry twice as many ARMs.