Can confirm that reducing the drag coefficient from 1.025 to 0.84 does the trick, both to get the armat to reach the target in the given time and to allow the martel to reach the speed of sound in a dive, after a supersonic climb and subsonic cruise.
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I’m just saying what the various manuals / reports say. That would imply the missile is not supersonic during phase 1 of flight.
I should have expected quirks from an Anglo/French collaboration… The missile behaves pretty much like stated on the manual if you swap in the rocket booster and the sustainer from the aj.168, keeping the 25º loft profile and reduced weight. It gets better performance (shorter travel time + faster impact speed) than the french as.37 version when launched from sea level.
But loses it’s advantage when launched from altitude.
So there’s at least 4 different missiles with the same chassis:
- Aj.168 Tv guided (17200 N 5 s booster, 2000 N 110 s sustainer, 550kg)
- Aj.168 ARH (same as above, 530 kg)
- As.37 martel ARH (36000? N 2,4 s booster, 10000? N 22.4s sustainer, 530 kg)
- As.37 armat ARH (36000? N 2.4 s booster, 10000? N 28 s sustainer, 550 kg)
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There was no British specific anti-radar version of AJ.168. Both Britain and France used the same AS.37 anti-radiation missile.
I took a quick look at the aj.168 specs posted on the forum. For starters, the ingame version has the wrong specifications, in warthunder the booster stage lasts for 5 seconds instead of 2,5 seconds, the sustainer stage lasts for 110 seconds instead of 92 seconds, and the overall missile weights 550 kg instead of 574 kg.
Second, while the trajectory modelling in warthunder/stat shark is limited, it seems very difficult for any missile to be able to reach supersonic speeds in a dive that started from subsonic speeds, especially in the thick lower atmosphere. So if the ARH version of the martel has a 22,2 second sustainer rocket that flames out before the climb is finished, it’s bound to be supersonic in the climb and either stay supersonic or subsonic the rest of the flight. The only way for the martel to climb subsonically and then dive supersonically is if the sustainer motor trades thrust for burn time, only cutting out after the missile starts losing altitude - and it’s the aj.168 that has the slower burning sustainer.
Third, the armat missile tests state clearly that.
Pour cette deuxième mission capitale pour l’avenir du Bazar”, la société Matra déploie les grands moyens : tous les responsables du programme sont là. En plus de l’équipe technique, sont présents Philippe Turpin, responsable chez Matra de tous les contrats avec l’Irak, et Jean Paolorsi, directeur emblématique et très respecté ,des programmes de missiles air-sol de Matra. …
… Le résultat de ce deuxième tir est donc un succès, avec encore une bonne précision d’impact, au grand soulagement des observateurs visuels “privilégiés”, qui rentrent en véhicule quelques heures après sur la base de Qayyarah-Ouest. L’enthousiasme est de retour et le dernier stress s’évanouit avec le pot improvisé qui s’ensuit. Jean Paolorsi est ravi d’avoir entendu le bang sonique de son missile qu’il avait toujours cru, jusqu’alors, parfaitement subsonique.
So even matra’s technical director thought the improved version of the as37 martel was still subsonic through most of it’s flight…
Regardless, i think the version i made is close enough, with the only real question remaining being the exact thrust and isp values of the different rocket motors, but i think that answer is probably hidden in some microfilm archive owned by MBDA.
Right now in the dev server the as 37 martel has a sustainer motor that burns for 168 seconds when it should burn for 22 seconds, lofts with a climb angle of 13.5º instead of 25º degrees and dives onto the target at an angle of -42.5 º instead of -60º, can you make a bug report on those using your sources or instead send me acess to the CTTO/90/10/Tac Tactical Employment of the Martel Missile document so that I can make a bug report?
@Gunjob Made a bug report on the ARMAT missile.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/xatKCxkXoQIg
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Is the Martel on dev? I thought it was only ARMAT?
There’s the armat and the martel, the martel have narrow band seekers.
though, shrike and martel are currently absent from any carrier on dev afaik
Part of me wonders if Gaijin was planning on implementing/adding later ones first for most top tiers/high tier aircraft, then going back and adding older stuff to lower tier vehicles (especially once nuclear thunder returns)
more likely trying to figure out what to do about lower tier arm carriers in mixed battles, or trying to flesh out the menagerie of other missiles on-dev or in-files (exocet for example)
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Did some tests on stat shark, the current version of the armat is nowhere near performing what it should be. Like i mentioned, in the trial launch launch from an aircraft flying at 1100km/h, 5000 m of altitude and 60 km away from target, the target was reached after 2 minutes and 32 seconds, but the ingame version of the armat only gets near it after 260 seconds (4 minutes 20 seconds), and it isn’t diving at supersonic speeds.
To fix it while still very slightly underperforming within margin of error, I had to:
- increase mass to 540 kg
- Reduce drag coefficient to 0.95
- Increase distance to cm to stabiliser to 0.25
- Reduce rocket sustainer duration to 28 seconds, increase force to 11000 N, mass lost to 130
- lofting elevation to 45º, target elevation -25º (45-70=-25), omega max 0,66, angle to acceleration multiplier 20
- PID Integral multiplier = 0 (any positive value makes the missile overshoot because of the lofting profile)
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So, recently we received an update about antirad missiles
And everyone got it’s antirad missiles but not the french, it is still absent (and no, i’m not joking when i say this is the only country in game without anti radiation missiles …)
Yep you are right
I just chekced and apparently they are here
One problem tho, and this is the reason i couldn’t find them :
SINCE WHEN THOSE AIRCRAFT HAVE THE FRICKING MARTEL ???
They never had it, nor the capacity to equip them, the only aircraft able was the french jaguar, for the simple reason that after him they were out of service
we got the armat, not martel? (idk if there’s any specific differences)
From what i understand, this is basically the same missile with an extended range
But basically, i don’t know anyone in the world that actively used them on Mirage 2000, and F1, the only known used of them being the SEPECAT Jaguar
Problem is, i didn’t find any reliable sources about the ARMAT actively being used during the IRAK-IRAN war (by Iraqi F1), and i know for sure that the ARMAT was never used on 2000 (and that one is from a french pilot that was using them on Jaguar before going into the 2000D squadrons)
So maybe they were used on F1, and Iraqui ones, but one 2000D and especially 2000-5F, an interception fighter ???
So yeah, in reality the only plane they flew with was the SEPECAT Jaguar, and MAYBE the Mirage F1
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We have seen Gaijin choosing pure feasebility over factual compatibility…
What i’m thinking is that they added ARMAT and ALARM instead of the earlier Martel because of battle ratings, and performance. It might be added with the earlier ARMs, as Shrike is also absent.
