MANPADS Missiles and Overload: The Technical Details

yays the guy that posted a document that states UK secret MANPADS Missiles and Overload: The Technical Details - #706 by Ralin

Just because a report was declassified, doesnt mean the missile’s full specs and details are declassified. or at least, publicly available. To assume:

Is just childish. Its far more likely that there is 10x more data for the stinger that has been collected. But lack of access doesnt mean it doesnt exist

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That was originally flame from one of his National archive trips.

fair enough i guess, still states higher G limits are needed

For Afghanistan, detailed statistics on most of the losses have been collected: the total losses of aviation for 10 years amounted to about 130 airplanes of various types and 330 helicopters.

At that, 30 airplanes and 55 helicopters were shot down with MANPADS of different types (not only Stingers, but also all kinds of Soviet early Strela and other Western ones, Stingers appeared in Afghanistan only in 1986) during 10 years of war.
And this is taking into account that about 4000 Stingers alone were delivered to Afghanistan (not taking into account other MANPADS).

It is not known how many launches were made, but statistically, based on these figures, the effectiveness of MANPADS even in Afghanistan, where the Stingers were indeed extremely advanced weapons, is homeopathically small - in the neighborhood of 1% ratio of the number of shootdowns to the number of missiles. That’s on tens of thousands of combat sorties over 10 years.

Yep. Neither document flame shared state max

Only Gaijin are assuming they are max. But that I dont have direct issue with. Its a reasonable assumption. The issue though is 2 fold:

  1. That missile cant sustain that figure for a larger percentage of its flight time and that is only an initial peak

  2. That the missile appears to be modeled as though the average is the max. and that the missile currently cannot hit 20-22G initially before dropping off to an average.

Short term

They need to change it to state a max overload of 20-22G and average of 13G and model the missile accordingly. With that initial boost to get onto target. This closely models the data provided and the data they have “assumed”

Long term
Using soviet data for IGLA (for a missile that uses an entirely different guidance method among other things) to show that the Stinger must have a G drop off is just wrong, they need to find Stinger, Mistraal or ATAS data to do that. It is entirely possible that the max of 20-22G is also the average for the missile. That it can maintain that amount of G for most of its flight time. Or at least an extended period of its flight time

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That’s a bit silly, as at similar average overloads, the max should be 35-40. Are you saying that the Stinger maneuvers at the level of the R-73 or magic 2?

Compare the missiles visually

We don’t know, thats the point. They are using IGLA data to state otherwise. Its a bit like me using Sidewinder data to model the max G of the R-73. It makes no sense.

At this current moment in time, we lack the actual data to state either way. We do have 1 report that indicates that “might” be the case. with a document that states “maneuverability (g) 22”. One way to interpret that, is that hte missile can pull 22G for its entire flight time. It does not state max or average anywhere.

Unless you can provide data stating otherwise. Using IGLA data to prove the Stinger is the same, is just wrong and shouldnt have been done. They could have stated that in the absense of data, they are assuming a G drop off. The community would have likely accpeted that. They did not. They used soviet data.

Like I said above:

This closely matches the data we have for now, but if and most likely, when, more data becomes available, they need to action it. Not ignroe it

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wow you are stupid, the R-73 has a speed of up to 2.5M , the stinger has 670m/s. Slower speeds of course are easier to manover, dont you understand the basics of sth like that? G limits are affected by speed and size of the object as well

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You know that Mach 2.5 is 850 meters per second. That’s not much of a difference. And a Mistral has the same speed at all.

The current data in no way states that 22 is the average. So until there are clear words about it, it is also unprovable and should not be used.

However, given the parameters of the target available for shooting down, the Stinger works roughly like the Igla.

ignoring again that they function completly differently , manpads roll for a reason

You don’t seem to understand the problem. They are trying to simulate the Bang Bang guidance by applying the .6777 factor to the available G-load. Now by applying the same factor to completely different missiles they’re simply modelling them wrong. Your argument makes no sense since a different guidance method would simply require a different factor to modify the G-load with (or none if the given G-loads from sources are already applicable given how the game models missiles). This is very much within the scope of the article since the article is trying to say the missiles all work the same when they apparently actually don’t.

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Do you have data on how they should do it?

We have 2 sources. 1 States 22G “maneuvability” the other states “lateral acceleration” of 20G. Neither state max, neither state average. Those are the figures we have available at this current moment in time.

This “might” be the average, this “might” be the max. We don’t know. At minimum this should be the max. Currently the max is 13G and in the absense of more data, using this data as a max is reasonable, for now. But if any additional data becomes available that indicates this is the average… Then it should be changed to the average. But even still. Using IGLA data “because they are similar” (even though they arent, entirely different guidance methods) to calculate that average, is kinda insane.

Yes, I agree. However, as far as I understand the topic, missiles can already such a max in the game

Can they though? Stat cards state “max is 13G”, Bug report states “max is 13G”, Dev blog states “max is 13G”.

3 “official” gaijin sources state the max is 13G. Unless someone can datamine the missile and confirm 20-22G is the max and the stat card and their statements are wrong. The assumption must be that the max = average and therefore the max is wrong. Thus the uproar in this post. If its a communication error. Then its a bad one. and the fact they havent corrected it yet, tells me that its possible its not a mistake

Screenshot 2023-12-28 155904

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image

no they cannot, they havent modelled that kind of thing, also the average pull of the stinger being 13 g is COMPLETELY wrong and Based on bad math as pointed out by one of the players further up the thread

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did you just prove yourself wrong?