Ah, well that just goes to show that I truly don’t understand it.
I’ve used a lot of different MANPADS and never saw them getting flared. You can only preflare so their missile locks on the flare, not your plane.
@RavenGuardMarine
Type 81 is better than Strela in every regard.
Type 81 def gets flared. So I would assume the others do as well.
The strela is better in closer range because the missiles turn out of the tube and immediately start course correction and tracking as far as I know. So not every aspect, there is use cases where it’s better. Overall I would take the 81c for sure.
But, there is a pause with type81 c, and while the missiles are better than strelas that pause means you can’t always take the shot you want in close range and have to wait for a better one or It will miss because it failed to track well.
Thats because its likely not on IR lock but rather optical lock. In that instance, the only way you can defeat them in by physically putting something between you and the seeker. Like a line of trees or a hill.
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They do get flared ?
I never really experienced that in the game, as people mostly either ignore the missile while flying straight just dumping flares and dying, or trying to dodge it and still dying.
I think my kill % against planes in Type 81 is easily above 98-99%.
Yes, Strela might be better at shooting down planes 400m away, but that isn’t really a realistic scenario.
I think our difference come from very different experiences in game lol. Between this and t series discussion I think we just have very different game experiences lol.
They definitely get flared, and if some heli is stupid enough to come to the field those laser spoofers mess em up too sometimes. I agree most pilots are stupid, but if they’re half decent the definitely get flared and can disengage the missile.
As well, idiots always come over the field all the time at Mach 1 lol and as good as my headphones are I still can’t tell exactly where until they’re on top of me sometimes or passing by and it would help to be able to shoot at them at easier angles. But I’d still take the type81 in most scenarios no doubt, it’s just that the strela is better in some ways and is still sued at top tier. But I’m pretty sure missiles have lower g load so they’re easier to just kinetically dodge.
But the type 81 if they zoom by me at Mach 1 they quickly start putting distance between us while I’m waiting for turret to slew around and it’s easier and easier to defeat the missile.
I think most times it does hit and I’m probably around an 80-90% hit rate but that’s because I think most pilots aren’t prepping for IR missiles and let that go until they’re hear one coming at the last second. I think most only worry about RWR pings for radar missiles. You can tell right away when it’s a decent pilot and they’re able to flare and dodge them with not so much difficulty as long as they have a bit of space between us and I don’t even mean all that far.
I can post proof next time it happens if you don’t believe me I just have to remember.
I know I tested out the missile’s lock range on a friend’s Kamov. At around 7km of range it hit every time, no amount of flares helped. Same thing happened with Su-34 flying perpendicular to me at around the same range.
Type 81 is seriously dangerous at those distances and it will definitely smack you if you ignore it.
For ranges below 6-7km I believe Type 81 is the best AA in the game besides Pantsir and VT-1 slingers.
You have to be JustinPlays in order to get 3-4-5km away from the battlefield in your top tier CAS lol.
I only once seen someone dodging Type 81.
It was launched in front aspect from like 5km and he managed to barrel roll in the perfect moment to avoid it, but I think it was more of a lucky moment though.
I can say with absolute certainty that they get flared and dodged in rolls.
But your experience in it is very different from mine. 7km for me is a number I have never achieved a lock that I can recall. Or sometimes I get brief locks, but it won’t actually let me fire the missile. I can rear aspect a jet at that range, but I do not get helis, even if I can somehow get a payload lock, it doesn’t lock the missile.
But yet it def gets flared and dodged. Maybe I need to read up how to use it better, but 7km on a heli is an absurd range for me, I’m lucky to grab one at I think 5km.
Any heli that lifts off the pad and just stays there and attacks the field, I can say for certain I have never been able to lock them. I have to close distance across the map, hope I don’t get hit on the trip and even then it doesn’t mean I’ll achieve a lock.
After using both, I’d probably take the ADATs overall. I prefer being able to target helis and drones effectively. As well as knowing what’s coming from where and sometimes being able to hit planes at distance flying straight.
Not to mention I’m not a sitting duck if someone approaches me I can still defend myself.
Spookston has a video on it and the first 2 minutes basically mirrors my experience in it.
They definitely can get dodged by rolling, but for flares I’m not so sure.
I guess it depends on the heli you’re trying to lock and the situation you’re in.
You shouldn’t have any issues at 5km if the helicopter is not in front of some clutter like ground/foliage to disrupt optical seeker.
ADATS is definitely better for drones and helicopters than any IR slinger, but something like Type 81 is definitely better/equal for planes at medium ranges. Being able to engage multiple targets in quick succession is also a big positive.
You can’t flare optical mode that’s why both techniques are required
If you watch the spookston video I referenced the first minute or so. You’ll watch a heli at 2.5km unable to be locked broadside, even though IRST does. Then a heli further away that it does lock avoids a missile that seemingly bites a flare.
I’ve had mine bite flares without a doubt.
It’s normally fine, but severely limited as an SPAA that like I said. If you had an all Japan or Japan/Isreal team, one jet and/or one heli could dominate the team. They have no ability to have situation knowledge through a radar, and no ability to target things manually so they’re donezo.
It’s normally fine, but isn’t so
First engagement happened against Mi-8 that has MAWs and system started dumping flares as soon as missile launched. It went through dozens of them and still didn’t get fooled.
That helicopter couldn’t be locked in optical mode as it was in front of a mountain. IR seeker on it’s own can fail to lock things at those distances due to shoddy modelling.
As for the helicopter that dodged the missile, I think missile didn’t even track to begin with.
You don’t see the smoke trail of the missile coming at helicopter or it’s flares and launch itself was dodgy.
Considering the smoke trail lasts for 3km+ it should definitely be seen on the footage if it was actually tracking anything properly.
This happens with every MANPAD I’ve used so far, you get a lock then the target breaks LoS but somehow your missile is still locked. If you launch at that moment you’ll observe how missile just continues flying straight without even trying to pull towards the target.
That helicopter being in front of a mountain has no impact. Or at least it should have no impact. They use contrast to optically track since it’s not AI discerning what’s in front of it. That’s a dark heli against a light background. The bread and butter of an optical tracker, I work with this first hand.
The IR/EO modeling are both bad, and ties in to what I said. There’s a document on here showing cheap old disposable stinger could track at 7km I’m pretty sure. These are woefully underpowered and won’t do anything unless people are dumb enough to come near the field. Which neither a heli or a jet needs to do in order to provide effective CAS.
These are just quite assured kills against the idiots.
They still need other SPAA. Which is why I use the example that if it was an all Japan and isreal team they’d have no answer to CAS and Helis. They can work, but they work because of JustinPlays type people.
I will watch more closely the next time a missile doesn’t hit and check replay to see if it chased a flare or not, because I have had them in the effective range and they missed. Next time it happens I’ll investigate after and see.
Here’s how WT models it from their devblog.
A photocontrast channel also has its own drawbacks to consider. The target can only be engaged during the day and in clear weather conditions, and the background behind the target must be uniform.
If Stingers could lock helicopters at 7km most of the early ones would be rendered useless or Stingers would move up in BR.
If latter was true, then they’d frequently face helicopters with 5km+ ATGMs and MAWs that would allow them to hide from slow Stingers pretty easily.
Stingers can’t win in any scenario.
I recreated the scenario that most likely happened in that Spookston video. I had no LoS to the target but I was allowed to launch a missile. It looked like it’s tracking for the first few seconds then it exploded on it’s own.
You can break optical locks by drastically changing the background, also, like flying low so the background is the ground rather than the sky.
Didnt know that, in that case, maybe i’ve defeated a few through that and not through flying low and ducking behind a line of trees
I suspect that the most advanced seekers at the moment are in the Mistral 3 and Type 91 Kai MANPADS, they both have an IR CCD matrix, possibly with complex filters for comparison and image conversion by scale - as the missile approaches the target, the scale of the IR image on the matrix increases and the internal microprocessor must, using certain algorithms, enlarge the image from the one recorded in memory at the time of the seeker launch and compare it with the one available at the moment. For example, at the time of launch, the Type 91 Kai records an IR photograph from the pixels in the matrix in memory and then, as it approaches the target, casts heat spots (IR traps) from the center of mass of the aircraft/helicopter itself. I do not understand this in any way, but I think these seekers have the greatest sensitivity among all IR seekers due to the area of the matrix itself and the possibility of primary summation of IR radiation over the entire area of the matrix at the time of the MANPADS launch.
The Webra seeker is most likely just a combination of the Stinger and Igla seekers, no visible or IR CCD matrix, the Russian defense industry will hardly be able to afford to use expensive CCD matrices for MANPADS.
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The type 81 uses the same system as the strela, if both are fired in IR mode they both can be flared and if they’re both fired in OPTICAL mode they cannot, the only way to dodge these in optical is to either physically dodge it or situate yourself in a way where ground is behind you. What I mean by that is if the sam is looking at you your background needs to be ground like a hill or mountain so the optical mode cannot lock or track
Or using terrain as your background, they can see you but if there’s ground in your background they cannot lock
Easier said than done when it comes to defending against a SAM in a plane