Making Russian Tank Protection more realistic

Its more that had functioning feature(s), broke / changed them in error, require documentation to fix them and then reject the sufficiently sourced report out of hand even though it was previously in a working state. and now required even more detailed documentation to actually fix the issue. And now they are just sitting on the report(s).

There are similar issues with the TOW-2B and M735 too, where we know they are currently erroneously modeled and awaiting fixes.

Where are you pulling this bit of the quote from? You do understand that some formulations of multi-spectral smoke do in fact include chaff, which again as implemented in game would defeat the guidance mechanisms relying on active radar emissions as seen with its interaction with (S)ARH seekers.

Please directly answer this question

Why can the AGM-65 currently lock onto the ground when they have acknowledged that Contrast Seekers (Such as the AGM-65) should not be able to do so? And is the functional difference them and Correlation type seekers.

Just in case you haven’t noticed this is a significant downgrade, and is not an increase in accuracy, and considering the dev response to the initial bug report, they probably won’t fix it in future either, since a proper implementation is computationally expensive.

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@tripod2008
M735’s fixes are in development.
TOW-2B doesn’t have unique problems, it suffers the same problems of all proxy-round missiles:
Overpressure not being as accurate as it should be, and fragmentation not being as accurate as it should be.
Not unique to TOW-2B.

Prove that all 10 tech trees use them. Again, there’s no evidence that any of the tech trees use them, and only rumors that China does.

Because of game limitations on how “select target point” works. That’s been the answer since they were introduced.
All guided weapons of War Thunder use the “select target point” system, just modified.
It’s limiting and causes issues.

Th unique problem of the TOW-2B is that it is a dual warhead missile, that entirely lacks its second warhead. And unlike all other tandem designs does not have bonus penetration, or ERA defeating capabilities.

Do I actually need to? Gaijin doesn’t require evidence about which particular Chaff formulation (Since band effectivity is a function of characteristic length of the dipoles, and so band coverage and dispersal rate / pattern depend on the ratio of lengths used and packing order ) is used but instead provides broad-spectrum impact to all radar systems, which we know is not constant across the various systems.

So can you explain why you think that simply changing “surfaceAsTarget” from true to false, for the relevant ordnance would not effectively resolve the issue?

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Well yeah, tandem/dual warhead isn’t a feature of War Thunder.
In the case of tandem, it’s just a line of text on a statcard that means nothing.

Gaijin needs evidence for weapons used on vehicles, which defensive systems like smoke count.
Same reason we needed evidence to prove 1x2 inch flares should be considered large caliber.

As for this one… I don’t know what Gaijin’s cooking in even most of their development.
I have the same public information on some systems, and decent guesses on others.
Working on those systems have impacts on fixing other issues.
If Gaijin’s working on an AI overhaul, they’re not going to work on new game modes or major game mode modifications until that’s finished cause that’ll be wasted work; as an example. Business sense.

This isn’t them saying this, this is me with my business studies saying this and seeing the behavior from other companies.
If they’re working on weapon changes across the board, they could be holding off on implementation of things fixed for the new system that are currently “playable” in the current version of the game. Does this mean we’re stuck with what we have for a while? Yeah.
Tandem warheads that aren’t tandem? Yep.
Missiles lacking dual-plane maneuvering? Yep.
So on and so forth.


To tie that back to AGM-114L and smoke with chaff…
1- You have to prove smoke with chaff is used on modern tanks by all tech trees just like we have to prove the capability of flare systems.
2- You have to accept the fact AGM-114L would enter War Thunder with at least the same system as AS.34 but able to lock onto ground vehicles, thus be undefeatable by smoke.

And 3- Acknowledge the fact that smoke and flares don’t have nuance in War Thunder. They’re very simple simulations that due to their simplicity mean new game features are required for modifying their abilities.

So why does the Tandem AGM-111K have improved penetration capabilities in comparison to the basic AGM-114B, even though the main charges are similar. An 100mm flat bonus to penetration would be significant for the TOW-2B.

The problem is that at least for now you have two (Three) categories for size, Standard & Large, which was intended to offset the fact that systems of Soviet origin tended to carry large volume, low quantity flares(mostly because they used less advanced formulations, and had different requirements and developmental methods), and so were put the at a distinct disadvantage during the period where flare performance was generic. (The Small class does the inverse and directly impacts LAU-138’s performance)

Then we have Western flares that fall into four separate form factors ; BOL-IR (2 x 3 x 1/4"), M206(1 x 1 x 4 or x 8"), MJU-7 (1 x 2 x 4 or x 8") and MJU-10 ( 2 x 2 x 8").

Of course with the two sperate categories, you come across the issue of why would you use the MJU-17 Flare bucket, when it only provides space for 6 countermeasures (Jammers are not implemented so it lacks one of its distinct advantages of the larger cartridges), when you could use the MJU-12 and have space 15 instead with the same performance (IRL the decision depends on expected threat, variant of countermeasure available, mission profile, and airframe), as the MJU-11, -12 & -17 Countermeasure magazines all fit in the standard form factor of the modern ALE-40 /-45 /-47 dispensers.

If had any input what I would probably do to rebalance things is also implement the covert nature (no report in the visual spectrum) of BOL-IR / ( & M221 countermeasure flare) to offset their worse performance and so make them more effective when being used pre-emptively (a further boost to their impact could be had if the FOV indicator was hidden, though the Gimbal limit indicator can remain as a guide).

They obviously don’t have a single team, and much of the work tasks can if properly planned be pipelined to increase throughput significantly.


This is the bit that I just don’t understand why you cling to it as being being of critical importance.

Much of what we have for countermeasures is abstracted (due to their nature, and also the potential for some systems to be held in war reserve) so its unlikely to be possible to prove its use for All Tech trees or at least the entirely of top tier (If we’re going to that level of granularity, and it would not be the first time a report is rejected due to game balance concerns) and so I don’t see why some level of handwaving in not practical, since the intent is to provide many additional nations’ helicopters some access to F&F ordnance and so allow balance to be had since more advanced ordnance is still a ways off (systems like the AGM-179 or LMUR missiles that would allow for an extended engagement range of more advanced SAM threats and so not completely write of helicopters after a point).

As proof that they do exist and entered service you have the US’s 66mm (IR/MMW) M81 obscurant smoke grenade;

The advanced development program for the M81 grenade was conducted from 1987 to 1992. In the transition to full scale development, the Operational Requirements Document (ORD) required the grenade to provide IR and MM instead of just MM protection The Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: Millimeter/Infrared (MM/IR) Screening, M81 was type classified in 1995 and is scheduled to begin production in 1998.

See above, there are systems that would defeat it available in a similar time frame.

In part at best, much of what would be needed could be reused with minor modification of existing systems to reach an acceptable level of granularity. It would be far less work than an entirely new bespoke system since much of the planning, hard work and implementation has already been done.

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Marking Russian tanks protection more realistic
Really? you guys really think Gaijin would do that? lol hell no i mean even now at overperform state of their armor ERA and survivability RU mains still complain about Strv122 and Leopard 2A7 being OP even leopard are in underperform condition such as armor and lack ANTI-ERA property on DM53
making their armor more realistic trust me it will be slaughter even in thier overperform states against enemies in underperfrom state they already getting murdered already
I might love killing them i still don’t want RU main to go extinction

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i a simulator match where the enemy team has 7 PEOPLE AND I’VE ALREADY CAPTURED A BASE.

Rush in vs SWEDEN&GERMANY? LOL SURE BUDDY. I pissed off that entire team to the point they bombed all the trees off that hill, and i still didn’t die, and i got a nuke doing this but the game ended on either this match or the next one, doing the same thing.

Way to go to make a nation un-playeble by right up destroying the thing that makes russian tanks playable to begin with. Nurf the armor to a unrealistic point that nato tanks somehow have the ability to pen right through is just the extreame oposite of what russian tanks are like right now

do you have that photo?

How did Ukraine penetrate this T-80BVM, If War Thunder says Penetration not  possible? : r/NonCredibleDefense

not the best photo but thats what 2 minute of searching gets you.

hm yea, judging by the fact that ERA didn’t detonate and real tank’s armor flat equivalent is only around 180mm while 3BM42 (most possibly, I doubt there were Leopards by Aug.2023 or earlier) penetrates up to 180-210mm on 68deg armor, it could have worked. In game it’s pretty close if you don’t touch the ERA but overbuffed armor multiplier (see pic below) doesn’t let it go
image
0.45 armor effectivity multiplier is absurd, it must be super-low

The russian era is something else but it known that for the most part russian composite is over performing. Slightly in some cases and by quite a bit in others. Its due to how gaijin calculated them from the beginning which has now ended up with so many errors. Someone worked it out a while back but im not gonna look back just to find a single post, dont have the time lol.

The problem with the era is that it provides the same protection no matter the angle which just isnt how era works. But i would be fine with that if it were an engine limitation if not for the fact nato era is given the worst flat stats as possible. So russian era is given the stats it would have at its optimal angle while on the TES its given its flat on value for some unknown reason?

A great example would be the era on the brenus, it uses the same principle as the russian era with an anti apfsds effect that just hasnt been put in the game. It has bug reports and sources but still nothing.

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you just need to go to post #1 of this thread to find it lol

its not an unknown reason, its deliberately modelled like that by gaijin, it was proven way back the TES era is tested head on, to be able to get STANAG 5 protection (iirc thats protection from 25mm apfsds from 500m away) yet they still deliberately choose to believe that “nuh uh! we know better and this 1 document that has nothing to do with either the tank nor the NERA is the real proof we need!”

see if you can find someone on the forums named “Legwolf”, they arent active anymore unfortunately, but they were the one fighting the hardest to get TES NERA buffed to realistic standards

image

Also, that T-80BVM image doesn’t really tell us much.

We don’t know if the projectile fully penetrated. We don’t know if whatever caused that entry hole was responsible for the destruction of the vehicle. We don’t even know what projectile struck the vehicle. We don’t know if the vehicle was disabled and subsequently destroyed via other means (drone dropped munitions), etc. as is so often the case with knocked out vehicles in that conflict.

The Challenger 2 loss was caused by guided artillery, but this was only possible due to it having been disabled via a mine. You could easily look at the mine damage and then come to the conclusion that it was responsible for the full destruction of the vehicle (which it wasn’t).

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Looks at completely destroyed BVM.

Says “we don’t know if projectile penetrated”

Lol, lmao even.

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Oh i know, i was there for the whole event… Not the best example but yeah. doesnt help they think the stanag level was achieved by including the nera, the backing plate as well as the side of the challenger… The level of copium coming from gaijin with that logic is astounding to me to this day.

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The guy who posted the image also stated that it was the penetrating hit that took it out. They will come up with anything other than their decades old mbt cant handle the munition made to defeat said tank… There is a reason in game russians are using the top of the line ammunition while nato are stuck with 1980s rounds, or were anyway.

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you realize something else could have destroyed it after this AP hit? dumb to laugh at something not proven

Russians are almost at limit with only 3BM69 being able to be added any time soon, and then… Non-stop NATO domination potential (though they probably wont be hurrying to add 2000s NATO rods for now)

The guy who posted the shot says Ap round took out the tank.

So yea it’s quite funny to see that you guys are actively trying compensate Russian tanks problems.