M4A3 (17-pounder): the ultimate Firefly

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m4a3vvss17prside_1091x742-640x435

The M4A3 (17-pounder) is, as the name suggests, an American M4A3 (with wet ammo storage and probably HVSS) armed with the British 17-pounder gun, essentially an American Sherman Firefly (even though it was never officially designated as such). Compared to British Fireflies, the M4A3 (17-pounder) had a superior chassis and access to late-war ammunition (i.e. APDS), making it the best Sherman Firefly available. While it arrived too late in the war to see combat action, it will be a unique addition to the World War II line-up of the US tech tree.

History

The US had long resisted the adoption of the 17-pounder for various reasons: dominant tank destroyer doctrine, overconfidence in the 76mm, and, at least earlier in the war, general disdain towards the British Firefly conversion program, believed to be “a waste of good tanks”. The last issue was more or less resolved after a report by Raymond Briggs regarding the Sherman Firefly, but the Americans did not fully accept the need for a better tank gun until after the Normandy Landings in 1944. Encountering heavy German tanks like the Panther, American troops found that even the 76mm did not perform up to expectations. A new HVAP round was developed, but its penetration was still somewhat inadequate, and the round was always in short supply. Therefore, General Omar Bradley, commander of the Twelfth Army Group, decided that Sherman Fireflies were needed.

Requests for Sherman Fireflies were first made in the summer of 1944 (likely in August), but were initially denied due to insufficient British production capacity and lack of spare 75mm Shermans for conversion. The need for better anti-tank firepower was highlighted again in the Battle of the Bulge, so production of 160 units of the American Firefly was officially authorised in February 1945.

At an unknown point in time, two M4A3s were experimentally converted to Fireflies, one with armoured ammunition storage and the other with wet ammunition storage. The wet storage version was found to be superior and recommended to be standardised for all American Fireflies.

Conversion began in March 1945 and was meant to be completed by the end of April. A large variety of M4s and M4A3s were used for conversion (although all used the 75mm turret; the T23 turret used for the 76mm was deemed unsuitable for the 17-pounder). Allen claims to have accessed documents recording all converted Shermans and says that at least 7 had HVSS and large hatch design. Unfortunately, no images of HVSS-equipped M4A3 (17-pounder) could be found; the image at the top shows an M4A3 (17-pounder) with the older VVSS. Regardless, I shall suggest the HVSS-equipped version in the interest of uniqueness and performance. Apart from the new chassis, not many major changes were made. The radio was housed in an armoured box at the rear of the turret and the M2 HMG mount was moved. Since they were produced in 1945, it’s almost certain that they had access to APDS ammunition.

In early April, the US Army decided to stop the American Firefly conversion program at the first batch of 80 tanks. These tanks were to be split equally between the First and Ninth Armies, but it’s unclear whether they actually received these tanks. The American Fireflies likely never saw combat as the war in Europe was winding down by the time they were produced, and suggestions to move them to the Pacific Theatre were denied. Recommendations were made to keep them in Europe for occupation duty, while it was also possible that they were reconverted back to M4A3 (76) Ws. The ultimate fate of these tanks is still unknown.

Specifications

Hull specifications are largely identical to the M4A3 (76) W, while the turret is largely identical to the British Sherman Fireflies. Both are already in game for easy reference.

Crew: unknown, possibly 4 like the British Fireflies
Weight: battle weight 34.8t, empty weight probably similar to the M4A3 (76) W (i.e. 32.9t in game)
Armour: Hull armour same as M4A3, turret armour same as 75mm Sherman turret
Armament: 17-pounder with AP, HE, APDS (see Italian Sherman Vc for ammunition types), 77 rounds; coaxial .30 MG; pintle mounted .50 M2 HMG
Gun elevation/depression: unknown, but given that it uses the same turret as the British Firefly, likely -5˚/+25˚
Engine: 500hp Ford GAA V8 (note that this is the same regardless of whether HVSS or VVSS is used)
Top speed: 43km/h
Power to weight: 15.2hp/t

In-game

The M4A3 (17-pounder) was probably the best Sherman Firefly ever produced. While it doesn’t solve the main complaints of inadequate gun depression and the lack of a stabiliser, the improved armour and mobility should make it a comfortable vehicle to play with. It will also provide US players a unique and competent medium tank to fill their World War II line-up.

Sources
9 Likes

Sure why not +1.

This is what Naomi SHOULD be operating in Girls und Panzer! +1

6 Likes

more shermans… i don’t know, +1 i guess.

2 Likes

Which one’s your source for this?

Was hoping this would get suggested sooner or later. +1 Since this specific vehicle was ultimately just a testbed, I’d like to see it as an event vehicle or premium with one of the standardized production variants being available in a more permanent way.

Would this go between the m4/T26 and the the 76mm armed Sherman’s or somewhere else?

+1

It should definitely an event vehicle, not tech tree.

+1 just need ammunition sources.

1 Like

Why would you ever want a unique vehicle like this as event?

Besides, this was accepted for service and would provide unique gameplay for the US tree which is literally just 76 mm at ~5.3 BR aside from the rare 90 mm and 75 mm.

There’s also plenty of other vehicles that would fit better as an event, even from the US Firefly variants like the VVSS variant…

+1 I need this and M4A3 75mm as soon as possible!

Squadron vehicle!
Also where the hell did you find a picture of this? I’ve only ever seen the one of the M22 in the foreground and a bunch of M4A3 Fireflies in the background

2 Likes

I believe it would just be assuming that because they were converted in 1945, half a year post-APDS introduction, and because the Americans were searching for an improved anti-tank capability, which would’ve been provided by APDS, that they would have at least been given some.

It seems reasonable to me.

Edit: looked for 17pdr APDS info

References
WW2Equipment - 17pdr
BOCN - 17pdr APDS
The-Eye - M4 (76mm) Sherman Medium Tank (Pg. 11)
WW2Aircraft - Availability of 6pdr Sabot, test

Penetration ability against sloped plate, in this case 17pdr against the 80mm thick glacis plate of a Panther:
(6) In contrast to the results obtained in this test with 17pdr SABOT, in firing conducted by First U.S. Army at Balleroy on 10 July 44, 5 rounds were fired at the front plate of a Panther tank at 700 yards. Examination of pictures of this firing indicates that the first round struck the mantlet, the second between the track and the nose plate, the third at the junction of the nose and glacis and penetrated. The fourth and fifth were fair hits on the glacis and both penetrated…

“6. Conclusions
a. That the 17pdr SABOT of the lot tested is considered an unsatisfactory ammunition because of its inaccuracy.
b. That the 76mm APC, M62 is considered an unsatisfactory ammunition for use against heavy armor because of its inferior penetration.
c. That the 17pdr APCBC and the 76mm HVAP, T4 are considered the best antitank ammunitions available in these calibers for use against heavy armor. The 17pdr APCBC is somewhat superior to the 76mm HVAP, T4, against the Panther Tank. Neither one can be be depended upon to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther in one fair hit on average quality plate.”

According to that last one, US Army tested the 17pdr with APDS in 1944. PDF above says they also tested it, but I didn’t see specific mention of APDS during my skim-read.

3 Likes

I don’t have documentation for the crews in the Balleroy test, but the Firefly crew in the 30 August 1944 Isigny test was British and did fire APDS.

The 17pdr was never used in combat by US forces, only being evaluated a handful of times. To add a vehicle like this either as Tech Tree or Premium would be anachronistic.

It should be limited by being Event, same as other similar vehicles.

1 Like

I would prefer squadron personally because it was evaluated and “officially used,” as well as the total conversions numbering more than a single digit (imo what would be good for a premium or event, see F-20 or TCM AGS).
Also, the US doesn’t have a squadron tank at around Rank 3. Could fit very nicely.

6 Likes

Comes from this article written by WoT: https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/part-iii-the-us-army-tests-the-firefly-article-by-world-of-tanks.html. It’s unsourced and uncaptioned (so in hindsight, maybe not the most trustworthy source), but the file name calls it an “M4A3 VVSS 17pdr”, and the appearance (large hatch, no side applique armour) seems to agree.

1 Like

+1

They should call it M4A3 Firefly

Would make a great squadron, event, GE prem or BP addition. I don’t think it should be TT tho