Lets Talk About The Object 279 Issue. Currently 5.8+ KDR on Average

That’s the reason heavy tanks went away IRL, but that doesn’t mean heavy tanks should also go away in War Thunder…

Performance-based matchmaking is the reason why PT-76 gets to play with WW2 tanks as opposed to its contemporaries.

I’ve never played the 279, and have only ever killed one when uptiering my Jagdtiger a while ago, so I don’t feel qualified to comment about its BR placement. Just making a general observation: “it would have faced plenty of absolute killers IRL” is not really a relevant argument. The PT-76 would have, too. We want all vehicles in game ideally to be worth playing, and thus competitive, and that might well require ahistorical placement.

And we also want classes to feel different. And heavies don’t really feel like heavies in most circumstances right now.

Though I agree with you that plenty of Russian armour is modeled absurdly. A FAB 250 easily kills my Jagdtiger, but I’ve seen IS-2 get literally hit on the turret roof by 500lb bombs dropped by friends in game and only throwing a track as a result.

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Agreed, most heavy tanks don’t feel good to play. You’re always scared to move as anything hidden behind a bush could kill you.
German heavies have obvious weakspots, British ones have poor guns, French ones don’t even have armour. That leaves the soviet ones that above 6.7 become really painful to deal with as they have few and inconsistant weakspots.

See the problem with this is that the heavy tanks should be fun to play against as well. I have seen a number of multi 279 teams just steam roll. They sit on the objectives and don’t even try to hide as people struggle to kill them. I have also seen multiple players pull nukes off with them when they get downtiered.

The game needs to be fun for both sides. Right now the 279 is making people quit games the moment they get noticed. Where is the fun in that?

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Totally right, altough I haven’t seen too many of them for the moment but yeah, 1 is already annoying so can’t imagine 2 of them.

No argument there. I did say every vehicle should be competitive, after all, that is the only reason to have them in-game. Otherwise it’s a waste of 3D assets and storage.

Though when speaking about balance in general: the current situation of heavies vs lights is simply incomparable. This is a related, but distinct issue from how the Obj 279 does individually, though. Like I said, I don’t know too much about how it performs, but I’ll still give you my two cents - but I’ll start with general observations first.

Mobility is always an advantage. Doubly so when the game is built around capping points. Teams start with 16,000 tickets, each kill is 100 tickets dropping, whereas caps drain tickets much faster and more efficiently. For this reason alone, vehicles that can cap will do more to benefit the team’s chances of victory, than vehicles that can score a lot of kills.

That’s a massive advantage already, but there are more.

You can mitigate lack of armour (don’t be seen, don’t be hit) but you can’t mitigate lack of mobility. Armour is useless up to the point it actually bounces a round. It’s dead weight otherwise.

And yet, light vehicles in game currently (not at every BR) also have the advantage of comparable or better guns, able to frontally cheese their way through the frontal armour of the heavies they encounter. And they typically have much faster reload times.

If that weren’t enough, they’re also more survivable, due to their questionable damage model. You don’t know what true existential pain is, if you’ve never landed a Jagdtiger shot from 900 metres on a racing AML-90, hit it broadside to only take out its engine (or even worse, it bounces on the tire), load HE for your second shot in the hope to survive the coming 18 seconds, only for the AML to casually look your way and take out your crew members, one by one. So you sit there for about a minute or so, in an endless cycle of repair and gunner replacement, just mostly waiting to die.

And let’s not forget scouting, and the discount on spawning CAS.

In other words, many lights currently outperform many heavies on all relevant performance metrics: firepower, mobility, and protection (!), plus all the “soft” bonuses that win matches, like ticket bleed and CAS.

You say lots of players outright quit rather than play against multiple 279s, and I believe you. But let me tell you, before 6.7 was decompressed, playing heavies was a nightmare, because every time you were at 7.7 (quite often), it just wasn’t worth to spawn them. That, too, was a big temptation to go back to the hangar.

You maybe started your evening gaming session with the intention of playing them, and then are almost never presented with a situation where they would actually be competitive, so you have to choose between having fun, or spawning in vehicles that might actually help the team win the game.

Let’s not even comment on the obvious schizophrenia of “it’s a 7.7 game so I won’t spawn in a Jagdtiger, I’ll take LeK or JPz instead”. These are 6.3 vehicles, and yet they perform far more competently at 7.7 than any of the 6.7 vehicles I field them with. Go figure that one out.

Besides, players go back to the hangar for lots of reasons, CAS being probably the most famous example. So that’s only indicative up to a point.

Now, the 279.

You cite issues like reload and pen, but Gaijin has long since uncoupled theirs from reality. They set reload on grounds of “balance”, not realism, and they use the DeMarre formula to calculate their own pen (not sure if they also fiddle with it to get desired results, but it seems quite probable).

What I find more concerning based on your description, is that 279 is not a brick of a heavy, but a tank with near-MBT mobility and reload. So, it’s not exactly comparable to Churchills, Jagdtigers, Tortoises, Tutels etc, in that it completely relies on armour to stay alive. To a lesser degree, this happens to other tanks too, the Tiger II is a heavy but has okay mobility and great gun handling. If it was frontally invulnerable, it would be unbalanced.

So maybe the solution is to balance Obj 279 like an MBT, not like a heavy.

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I will say this for Soviet heavies: since they are so frequent, I have gained lots of practice killing them, and now I’m almost happy to see them, because it’s just so enjoyable to one-tap the boogeyman.

IS-6, to be fair, has a genuine massive weakspot that can’t really be mitigated. Even when bushed up, it’s not exactly hidden, you can always use its gun to orient yourself.

IS-3 is the one that’s really finnicky, probably due to volumetric implementation maybe? The right turret cheek is too tiny to be reliable past 500 metres or so, but the frontal trap shot is a big coin toss. Sometimes you insta tap it, sometimes you get weird bounces. At this point when meeting an IS-3 whose right turret cheek I can’t shoot, I just aim for the gun, and then follow-up with an attempt at the trap shot after.

IS-4M needs to make a mistake for you in a JT to frontally kill it, but it does happen. I one-tapped one day before yesterday at Breslau. Came charging at me unangled, at close range, with the drivers’ hatch right there for the taking.

Sometimes, the enemies having such supreme confidence in the immortality of their equipment plays into your hands.

Simulator, I will admit, is a different issue altogether. On vehicles where gunner’s parallax is quite far away from the gun, hitting tiny weakspots like those up close becomes very, very hard.

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Yes but that’s a balance issue for me. You can’t just erase the Maus because it’s hard to balance when it has obvious weakspots and can’t even move.
When a tank needs to make a mistake for you to kill it, then it’s not balanced.
For the IS-6, yes there’s a weakspot but yesterday the guy just kept moving it’s hull and turret making it annoying as hell to hit. I spent 4 rounds, each time just hitting the canon or breach and I couldn’t flank it since it was being covered by it’s allies.

And against the lights tanks, as you very rightfully said, it’s a real pain to hit them at a point that I don’t even try unless they are facing me.
We need the hull break system back, and fast.

Hull break probably went a little too far, but something somewhat like that, yeah.
A 128mm shell should just destroy an AML on kinetic impact alone tbh. Fuze or not. It’s basically the size of the fighting compartment 😁

Will never forget the time on El Alamein I hit an M18 in the turret with the Sturer Emil from 900m, and it passed right through the commander without killing him (the gun turned a little yellow though, great success). Soldiers must have been built different back then 😁

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As for the IS-6, well, sounds like he was playing correctly… At the end of the day, mitigating weak spots is a skill, too. So is playing mind games.

In the JT I try to wiggle like crazy, move the gun, and angle myself unpredictably in between shots. It’s saved my life many times, throwing off shots that were aimed at my gun barrel, or getting me tracked inatead lf shot through the LFP.

It’s fine for heavies to be hard to kill frontally. What’s really bizarre about Russian heavies is how they are much more survivable against some things - like huge bombs - compared to heavies of other countries that are at least as well armoured or better armoured.

The 279 is just going to be either broken overpowered or lackluster no matter where you put it, it’s a pretty unique tank even in the class of superheavies.

I’d say after the decompression update 9.0 would be the closest thing for a good spot for it, that way it’s capable of tanking like a true heavy in a downtier and is able to shrug off most of the lighter armaments in an uptier while being able to 1-shot any opponent with it’s brutal main cannon and use the autocannon for lighter opponents.

At 10.0 I don’t see anything it can face that would pose so much of a threat to the 279 that it’s incapable of fighting back while the 8.0s would struggle to fight it but still be able to reliably kill it through careful positioning.

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Yeah made up stats, they’re also made up in game apparently.

OK, so dude played 3000 battles in one plane, his KPB is kinda meh (Bf 109 F-1 used to be one of the most OP planes in game, and it still is pretty damn good), and is probably AF camping and squadding hard. That’s one of the most pathetic things I’ve seen in this game.

How does that prove anything?
So you have found real numbers that will tell you absolutely NOTHING about the plane.

I’ll show you something else.

This is how stats of the very best players in game look right now.
And what is his K/D?
A bit below twice as good as K/D.

And this guy is apparently only doing 66% of kills Do-335 A0 guy does. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh look, again twice as good as K/D.
And still way worse than Do-335 or G.55 S1 guy.

About 3 times as good K/D as KPB, but this guy is doing noticebly worse KPB wise.

And lets see 49th guy at the moment, just as a comparison:

3 times better.

The stats in Thunderskill are simply made up in most cases. Or simply useless, because performance of 1 absolute SWEATLORD seal-clubber in Bf 109 F1 will tell you nothing about the plane anyway.

Now some planes that easly beat most of top 10 players in WT KPB wise and it took me like 2m to find these and I’m sure I can find 2-3 times as many in other trees (these are from Italian, USSR and Japanese trees and more can be found even in these trees)

https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/n1k1_ja
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/ki_84_ko
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/a7m2
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/mc-205_serie3
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/g_55s
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/yak-3u
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/la-7_dolgushin
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/yak-9ut
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/yak-9u
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/p-39n_su

Yeah these are real numbers.

Also a few more interesting vehicles:
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/vb_10_02
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/vb_10c1

KPB higher than KD XDDDD

What about tracking your own personal skills - are there better tools than TS, or is it fine at least on that count?

For your personal stats it’s OK I guess, it shows you how your plane stats have changed. And in this regard it’s v. good tool.

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I generally wish we had better UI for this stuff. I mostly play to try and improve at the game, but games go by in a blur and it’s hard to quantify progress or what you need to work on with the in game tools. It’s also hard to figure out realistic benchmarks to aim for.

I really can’t tell you how much I don’t care about these ‘best players’ as if that means anything in this game, I’m not impressed by anyone abusing vehicles, mechanics or whatever else to get a k/d in this game.

Or simply useless, because performance of 1 absolute SWEATLORD seal-clubber in Bf 109 F1 will tell you nothing about the plane anyway

Huh, it’s almost like that’s exactly what I said about vehicles with a small sample size but you insisted it was enough.

77 battles is a good sample size.

Thunderskill 1 to 1 copies data from players, if you want to believe they have some sort of agenda and fake data for whatever reason that’s on you.
You just don’t have an explanation for the data, and thus it must mean it’s fake data.

Who knows what the explanation is, the game is full of issues and people who abuse them, maybe there is an issue with the data, but calling it fake or made up is silly.

The problem with these “small sample sizes” is that these numbers are fake.
And example of Bf 109 F1 shows that even with bigger sample sizes, it’s still basically useless numbers.

The only thing Thunderskill is good at is showing who has no idea about the game they’re playing, because such people will believe Thunderskill numbers right away.

So any argument based upon Thunderskill numbers has exactly 0 value. Want to talk planes or tanks? Get some good players and ask them about their opinions, ask them to analyze and you’ll come up with something actually useful, however, even v. good players can be biased and not fully self-aware. But that’s still better than planes with K/D substantialy lower than KPB which is substantialy higher than what Top WT plane killers are capable of. Yeah, LEGIT.

For real … my biggest beef is against all those BMPs and Marders or BTRs that have enough armour to absorb machineguns but not enough to trigger the fuse.

Sure he was, but it’s not balanced that one guy can just totally hide his weekspot whil mine is the entire LFP or gun mantlet …