At 11.7, the pinnacle of Top Tier, you got MBTs with:
-700-900mm KE armors
-600-650mm pen shells
At 11.3, just a step below in BR, you get… Leopard 2PL, with:
-300mm max KE hull from a 10.3 tank
-Half of the front turret’s surface being 320mm KE
-A 530mm pen shell
The power disparity between this 11.3 MBT and the 11.7 options is huge.
Since it would retain useless armor anyway, it should at least get its historical DM63 shell, both for historical reasons and, as you can see, balance ones.
i can get behind that
Nah. We just need some br decompression to 13.0. Then DM63 can be talked about for the 2PL.
True, nothing that good old decompression wouldn’t solve.
it just DM53 but will not go boom when get hit why not?
I can get behind the historical reasoning, but I’m playing the 2PL by itself a lot this week and boy, it’s VERY GOOD. So I’m not so sure if it desperately reeds rebalancing.
Indeed, or we need move M1A1HC/AIM to 11.7
Just compare it objectively with its counterparts.
What makes it so “VERY GOOD” compared to Strv 122B+ or Leopard 2A7V, for example? Because it has nearly the same BR (11.3 vs 11.7), except having up to 120mm less of penetration, while also having 3x times more and bigger weakspots and less than half as strong armor overall.
it’s very good compared to 11.3 tanks that are not Leopards. The tanks you are comparing it to are not just very good, they are exceptionally good, the literal best tanks of the meta.
Ok then- what makes Leopard 2 PL so much “better” than M1A1 AIM or HC?
These have significantly more penetration, better turret armor, better hull armor, equivalent mobility, less and smaller weakspots… (and it’s kinda sad that a 11.3 Abrams has better armor than a tank at Top Tier) and now higher rate of fire too.
After all, as of now, Leopard 2 PL is just a glorified 10.3 Leopard 2A4 with a bit of additional turret armor that covers some of it (1/3rd of the turret is still a mantlet weakspot, 1/2 of the right cheek is still a weakspot, etc), better thermals and the weakest shell in Top Tier (536mm pen).
I don’t think getting firepower equivalent to the 11.3-11.7s it faces is far fetched!
I never disagreed on this part. If I didn’t make it clear, I’m backing the historical adjustment of giving it the contemporary ammo, the 2PL is a very recent modification!
What I’m saying is that from PERSONAL experience, the 2PL is doing more than fine, there’s nothing it faces that it can’t consistently kill.
We really just need a br increase to something stupid. 14.0 anyone?
Since Leopard 2 PL is the only non-Russian tank you currently possess, I can see why you would hold that opinion; as a Western tank, it has many qualities and advantages you would normally not find in most Russian tanks (good gun depression and elevation angles, good reverse speed), so it may look like it has an edge then.
However, I assure you that, as soon as you played a few matches with Leopard 2A7V, Strv 122B+/B PLSS/A, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 3 TD or M1A2 SEP/SEPv2 (even on their current state), you would see how lacking 2 PL is compared to these hahah.
Basically, those tanks have EVERYTHING Leopard 2 PL has, except with 120mm higher penetration and 100-450mm KE stronger armors on a 60º arc.
I mean, I would have no issue with 2 PL being at its current state, but my issue is that this tank, on its current state, is, as of now, nearly the same BR as the very best tanks in the game.
Like… if max BR was 12.0 and Leopard 2 PL was 11.3, yeah, I could see that. But, right now, it’s 11.3 when the top is 11.7… as of now, it has zero reason to be 0.4 BRs below Leopard 2A7V.
That’s why I support the addition of DM53/63; not just for historical reasons, but mainly and specially, for balance!
Yep, that is my prior experience. I’m used to less “ergonomic” vehicles.
On a sidenote, I prefer uptiers, since the teams are good. In downtiers it’s the PzBtl spam tier, these teams stink. So I’m more than fine with the idea of a better round and a bump to 11.7.
It really doesn’t, only issue I found while playing it is the engine power.
Bumping this thread, since the new 11.3 premium will have a better shell and overall armor, power creeping the PL in all aspects.
@SPANISH_AVENGER you were right.