J-11A To 13.3

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

Just tested both the JF-17 fully loaded and Flanker fully loaded and here are my results:

The JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.06/1.05 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.14 and the Flanker fully loaded redlines at Mach 1.15 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.30 - all on the deck.

That’s a pretty sizeable difference to me but what can I tell you?

Do you stop as soon as you see “reduce speed”? Because you know you can go faster as long as you know the absolute wing rip speed? (Which is like 1430-1450Kmh IAS or M1.18-1.20)

@TPS_Hydra

And the J-11A lacks behind in situational awareness as you have both a worse radar and worse RWR than your adversaries. Both of these are one of the most important things for BR and you’re currently overlooking it.

On the deck, HMS is far more important. Because on the deck you can kind of ignore your RWR as long as you’re abusing multipath. For the radar? Sure.

@TPS_Hydra

And this includes nearly all 13.3 aircraft in-game, congratulation. The exception to this would be the SU-27S and J-11 and excluding them most and if not all lack HMS.

If the J-11A was to move down to 13.3 then it’d be the only ARH capable platform with a HMS - a good redeeming factor for its bad RWR and radar.

So where’s the part where you tell me you’re gonna dogfight with a box ACM?

@TPS_Hydra

Yeah why not artificially nerf all radars in-game to 50km as you won’t be engaging them further anyways right?

What? Where did 50km come from?

70km is plenty. The farthest I’ve gotten a kill with an R-27ER is 70km and beyond that the missile runs out of guidance time.

Well maybe you’re stupid enough to try 100km R-77 shots I guess.

@TPS_Hydra

Irrelevant, I ignored it because it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion, we are talking about the current state of the game and not when 13.0 use to be top tier for aviation - don’t add silly childish rules.

Tf? I’m applying my knowledge of the Su-27SM (pre-buff) to the J-11A. That’s why I said pre-buff. I’m not comparing the two planes, its not some “silly child rules”. Jesus Christ.

@TPS_Hydra

No, just overall does everything the J-11A does but better, this isn’t me grabbing straws but making a good assessment. When the SU-27SM does everything better than the J-11A I don’t see why it should sit at the same GRB and ARB BRs.

“Erm, Irrelevant, the discussion is tagged as air-rb, ground ordnance does not matter” /s

[141_allen]

JF17 has box ACM, no HMD, worse radar, similar rwr, much slower. Same BR? I wouldn’t say box ACM as worse feature.

@Axzuel

“Erm, Irrelevant, the discussion is tagged as air-rb, ground ordnance does not matter” /s

I did have a thread, although it is dead now, J11A being same BR as Su27SM in GRB seem even more ridiculous than ARB lol.

[Axzuel]

@141_allen

JF17 has box ACM, no HMD, worse radar, similar rwr, much slower. Same BR? I wouldn’t say box ACM as worse feature.

It has PL-12s, that’s why its 13.3 despite its flaws.

@141_allen

I did have a thread, although it is dead now, J11A being same BR as Su27SM in GRB seem even more ridiculous than ARB lol.

That’s just BR compression.

[141_allen]

@Axzuel

It has PL-12s, that’s why its 13.3 despite its flaws.

Less, and the top speed… Pretty notable in dogfights that it cannot keep up.
PL12 vs R77 is not as big of a gap as one would think. It is much more like better BVR if they fly straight and have lower height but not quite multipathing whilst no chaff thrown, whilst in WVR, much worse than R77 in terms of manoeuvrability, energy wise, actually worse in some cases, better missiles for sure, but not a huge gap.

[TPS_Hydra]

Do you stop as soon as you see “reduce speed”? Because you know you can go faster as long as you know the absolute wing rip speed?

Read my message again, redline as in the reduce speed symbol pops up and can’t surpass literally means the aircraft is incapable of surpassing said speeds in certain environments. I was testing all of this in test drive on the deck and continued straight until the aircraft couldn’t anymore.

On the deck, HMS is far more important. Because on the deck you can kind of ignore your RWR as long as you’re abusing multipath

Wrong, you can’t ignore your RWR even when you’re on the deck as missiles coming from above both IR and SARH/ARH will still send you to hell and back. You usually have to slightly notch SARH/ARH missiles coming from above in order for it to not proxy near you and damage a part of your aircraft.

Terrain also matters, in some environments you won’t be able to terrain hug as there will be small dips in certain areas.

Tf? I’m applying my knowledge of the Su-27SM (pre-buff) to the J-11A. That’s why I said pre-buff . I’m not comparing the two planes, its not some “silly child rules”. Jesus Christ

The current discussion is about the future and current performance of the J-11A compared to both the SU-27SM and mainly the SU-34, pre-buff SU-27SM is off-topic and shouldn’t be brought up.

Pre-buff J-11A also lacks MAWS making it identical to the J-11 other than having RVV-AEs.

I’d expect better from someone who continues and continues about the same argument of “speed bleed” and “no HMS”, yapping final boss here.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

Read my message again, redline as in the reduce speed symbol pops up and can’t surpass literally means the aircraft is incapable of surpassing said speeds in certain environments. I was testing all of this in test drive on the deck and continued straight until the aircraft couldn’t anymore.

Really? Because I tested the Su-27SM’s top speed on the deck with 12 missiles (so theoretically the top speed should be lower than the J-11A) and turns out it tops out at M1.17 not M1.14. Also the JF17, 4 missiles, max fuel, tops out at M1.18 on the deck.

@TPS_Hydra

Wrong, you can’t ignore your RWR even when you’re on the deck as missiles coming from above both IR and SARH/ARH will still send you to hell and back. You usually have to slightly notch SARH/ARH missiles coming from above in order for it to not proxy near you and damage a part of your aircraft.

I said kind of. You don’t need to pay full attention to it, just know if the missile headed towards you is radar or IR. Also you can avoid getting hit on the deck if you don’t fly in a straight line, doing small turns (1-3G maneuvers) will suffice and you won’t get proxied.

@TPS_Hydra

The current discussion is about the future and current performance of the J-11A compared to both the SU-27SM and mainly the SU-34, pre-buff SU-27SM is off-topic and shouldn’t be brought up.

If you remember you questioned if I even knew how the J-11A flew. Then I said the Su-27SM (pre-buff) is similar to the J-11A minus a few things so I know how it flies. Hence where the “pre-buff” came from and you made a big deal out of that.

@TPS_Hydra

I’d expect better from someone who continues and continues about the same argument of “speed bleed” and “no HMS”, yapping final boss here.

I really don’t wanna hear it from the guy who stops accelerating after “reduce speed”. Or “ground ordnance” in ARB, really? Or 100km R-77 BVR lmao. That’s called “grasping at straws”.

@141_allen

PL12 vs R77 is not as big of a gap as one would think. It is much more like better BVR if they fly straight and have lower height but not quite multipathing whilst no chaff thrown, whilst in WVR, much worse than R77 in terms of manoeuvrability, energy wise, actually worse in some cases, better missiles for sure, but not a huge gap.

The R-77 has a lot more drag than the Pl-12, making the R-77 maneuver rapidly depletes its energy. The Pl-12s also have much better range, right behind the AAM-4 and as for its maneuverability, its just right behind the R-77.

[TPS_Hydra]

Really? Because I tested the Su-27SM’s top speed on the deck with 12 missiles (so theoretically the top speed should be lower than the J-11A) and turns out it tops out at M1.17 not M1.14. Also the JF17, 4 missiles, max fuel, tops out at M1.18 on the deck

I have done both with expert crew and all results are what I’ve gotten, is this you trying to call me a liar? Both failed to surpass a certain speed limit whilst fully equipped but the Flanker far exceeds the JF-17 top speed wise - hold the cope.

I said kind of. You don’t need to pay full attention to it, just know if the missile headed towards you is radar or IR

Missiles fired above and especially large ones like the R-27 or AIM-54 usually tend to blow you up either way, and 1g to 3g manoeuvres won’t save you from a missile like the Fakour.

Never ignore your RWR, the first thing you must learn is having a high level of awareness and modern RWRs do so and by ignoring them you are essentially going in blind - maybe this is a new concept to you?

If you remember you questioned if I even knew how the J-11A flew. Then I said the Su-27SM (pre-buff) is similar to the J-11A minus a few things so I know how it flies. Hence where the “pre-buff” came from and you made a big deal out of that

Still irrelevant to the discussion, you haven’t played the J-11A before and therefor can’t make a 100% accurate assessment, and the same applies for the JF-17. The SU-34 on the other hand would be a heavier but better J-11A without the HMS and the MAWS addition, that’s something I could make a educated guess on.

You’ve so far made many assumptions on the JF-17s performance in a general sense and by the looks of it the same for the J-11A, you continue to underestimate a good RWR/radar and continue to downplay the importance of multiple DL channels.

The J-11A is the worst aircraft for extended ranges and even something like the SU-34 would be more than capable of outperforming it in that specific factor. The importance of HMS is more of a annoyance at longer ranges and the speed bleed is something you’re overestimating, look at the Tornado F.3 Late which sits at the same BR of 13.3 if you think the SU-34 has a bad FM.

I really don’t wanna hear it from the guy who stops accelerating after “reduce speed”. Or “ground ordnance” in ARB, really? Or 100km R-77 BVR lmao. That’s called “grasping at straws”

Firstly what you’ve claimed is just entirely untrue, I held WEP and continued in a straight line on the deck then counted my results and the GRB BR for the J-11A is also a discussion point which had an entire thread dedicated to it, it’s something I brought up as the SU-27SM in both air and ground is superior to the J-11A.

The R-77 has a lot more drag than the Pl-12, making the R-77 maneuver rapidly depletes its energy. The Pl-12s also have much better range, right behind the AAM-4 and as for its maneuverability, its just right behind the R-77

The platform of which the SD-10A is being launched from (that being the JF-17) lacks the essential amount of speed for long range engagements. The speed bleed is also a large issue for the aircraft below Mach and that’s something I haven’t seen you bring up before.

You like to select and pick which arguments to throw at me and leave others out which will make your argument look weaker, nothing you’ve said is really logical in a in-game standpoint.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

I have done both with expert crew and all results are what I’ve gotten, is this you trying to call me a liar? Both failed to surpass a certain speed limit whilst fully equipped but the Flanker far exceeds the JF-17 top speed wise - hold the cope.

No I’m accusing you of not accelerating lmao. Because M1.08 for the JF17 and M1.14 for the Flanker is the “reduce speed” indicator, not when they rip or top out. I’d know because I own the Flanker equipped with 12 missiles so to bias in favour of you (12 missiles on the Su-27SM is more drag than 10 missiles on the J-11A).

You can literally see the Flanker topping out at M1.19 at FULL FUEL, 12 MISSILES with 4 x R-27s to bias in favour of you.

@TPS_Hydra

Missiles fired above and especially large ones like the R-27 or AIM-54 usually tend to blow you up either way, and 1g to 3g manoeuvres won’t save you from a missile like the Fakour.

Its difficult to make that consistent. You’d need to be at a relatively high angle to your target which in top tier is difficult to achieve because you’d either need to be close and above your target (not gonna happen), or at space (not gonna happen).

If it was this easy to counter multipathing, people wouldn’t be abusing it lol. The fact is that its difficult to counter multipathing especially with the radar altimeter.

@TPS_Hydra

Never ignore your RWR, the first thing you must learn is having a high level of awareness and modern RWRs do so and by ignoring them you are essentially going in blind - maybe this is a new concept to you?

Do you not read on purpose? This is like the 3rd time I have to mention “kind of”. You can kind of ignore the direction at low altitude and close range because you can physically see the targets, you’re not gonna be notching at multipath altitude so there’s no point in accurately gauging where the missile’s radar is coming from. No wonder why you think the Su-34 is better than the J-11A lol.

@TPS_Hydra

Still irrelevant to the discussion, you haven’t played the J-11A before and therefor can’t make a 100% accurate

Its not hard to know what its like to fly the J-11. The J-11 is literally a Flanker. I know how shit the SPO-15 is because the base Flanker literally had it. You act like the J-11 and the Su-27 are worlds apart when in reality they’re similar with a few differences (pre-buff at least).

@TPS_Hydra

look at the Tornado F.3 Late which sits at the same BR of 13.3 if you think the SU-34 has a bad FM.

Holy shit man I know how the Tornado flies. I never compared the Su-34 to the Tornado. The reason why the Tornado is 13.3 is because of the AMRAAM + 9Ms.

@TPS_Hydra

Firstly what you’ve claimed is just entirely untrue, I held WEP and continued in a straight line on the deck then counted my results

I’ve already explained above. You’re not accelerating beyond “reduce speed”, its obvious. Even a full fuel, 12 missiles, 4 x R-27 loaded Flanker can reach M1.19 so I’m not sure where you got M1.14 from unless you’re stopping right at “reduce speed” indicator. Its common knowledge that its not the absolute top speed of an aircraft but who knows, you thought the J-11A had a slower scan rate than the Su-27SM or a radar lock beyond 70-80km matters lol.

@TPS_Hydra

GRB BR for the J-11A is also a discussion point which had an entire thread dedicated to it, it’s something I brought up as the SU-27SM in both air and ground is superior to the J-11A.

GRB is a different BR set. There is no point in bringing it up in ARB BR discussions.

@TPS_Hydra

You like to select and pick which arguments to throw at me and leave others out which will make your argument look weaker, nothing you’ve said is really logical in a in-game standpoint.

Funny thing is that I didn’t even bring up the JF17 is the first place. You brought it up in context with the Su-34’s rival in BVR, hence why I don’t mention its FM. You bring up arguments and act like I brought them up.

The fact is that the Pl-12 is superior to the R-77 in BVR, the difference between the Su-34 and JF-17’s speed won’t change the outcome.

This is why no one uses R-77s for BVR. You can delude all you want with 100km R-77s.

[EnglishTeaKett1e]

I’m not going to say whether or not J-11A should go down in BR, but Gaijin choosing to add J-11A (and its specifically the 2010s MLU variant) and not giving it the N001V and RWR improvement will always be beyond me. The J-11A is the worst 13.7, I don’t think anyone will say that I’m wrong about this. At the very least with Su-27SM you can provide datalink to two ARH missiles, and the Su-27SM can now carry more R-77s compared to J-11A. The J-11A is also the heavier aircraft by 500 kilograms empty.

Gaijin can add an early block J-11B instead without the improved engines. So what is wrong with the Flanker finally having a decent radar and decent fox 3s? Early J-11B is not far superior to the F-15C that we have in game, which is MSIP II in the 2000s. In fact, they are comparable in many ways.

[EnglishTeaKett1e]

Russia should’ve gotten the batch of Su-27SM with improved engines. And if that isn’t enough, maybe even R-77-1.

[Axzuel]

So the Su-27SM3.

[EnglishTeaKett1e]

Yeah, because that would give Flanker somewhat better energy retention and flight performance, since Gaijin seems unwilling to address the underperforming flight model of the Su-27 currently. Their excuse is that it is “close enough.” But I don’t think underperforming by 0.4gs is close, but oh well.

[Axzuel]

Well with the F-15E/I coming, the Su-30SM I believe is the appropriate plane to add. Better avionics, TVC, canards, and is multirole.

[141_allen]

I’ve done test myself now, no loadout, JF17, rips at 1.23 at 1000m alt, J11 doesn’t rip but can’t go any faster at 1.32 at 1000m alt. Human error, + - 100m alt, + - mach 0.1. JF17 generally much worse.

[TPS_Hydra]

No I’m accusing you of not accelerating lmao. Because M1.08 for the JF17 and M1.14 for the Flanker is the “reduce speed” indicator, not when they rip or top out

You genuinely made me spit out my drink with that video, I managed to reach around Mach 1.30 with my Flanker. I don’t know why you thought it would be a good idea to test this with 44 minutes of fuel 😭.

If that’s the amount you bring into a match then something needs to be revised, 29 minutes of fuel is more than enough for me let alone god damn 44 minutes lmao.

I’d know because I own the Flanker equipped with 12 missiles so to bias in favour of you (12 missiles on the Su-27SM is more drag than 10 missiles on the J-11A)

You can’t be serious right now…

You just contradicted yourself, I highly doubt 2x R-77s will effect the speed of the SU-27SM on the deck but rather the absurd amount of fuel you’re taking.

These are literally your exact words:

---

“The JF17 rips roughly at 1430IAS on the deck (roughly M1.18), I just tested. Now it was with 2 less missiles but I don’t think its gonna make a massive difference” - Axzuel

---

You can literally see the Flanker topping out at M1.19 at FULL FUEL, 12 MISSILES with 4 x R-27s to bias in favour of you

That’s comparable to getting a full bomb load on the F-15C then coping about it not going fast compared to the Mirage 2000, no sh** sherlock.

[TPS_Hydra]

Gaijin can add an early block J-11B instead without the improved engines

We’re getting the F-15E and F-15I with the improved 229 engines, they’re capable of sustained Mach 2 whilst manoeuvring. I don’t see why engines on the J-11B should be restricted.

The J-11B could come into the game this December with PL-8Bs and PL-12s whilst having the improved engines and being entirely balanced - mustn’t you forget about the poor FM of the Flankers.

[TPS_Hydra]

The fact is that the Pl-12 is superior to the R-77 in BVR, the difference between the Su-34 and JF-17’s speed won’t change the outcome

Just tested this in test drive, the R-77/RVV-AE and PL-12/SD-10A roughly make it to target at around the same time and that being 36 to 38 seconds - target was 20km away. The altitude of the missiles being fired was around 1100 meters and the speed of the JF-17 was Mach 1.09 whilst the speed of the Flanker was Mach 1.15 both in a climb.

I used my phones stop watch and started the counter the minute the target was exactly 20km away from me, take away or add couple seconds or milliseconds for human error

The time to target was negligible between the both and the main factor in-game would be missile count and we all know that the SU-34 has more ARH missiles than the JF-17.

On top of this the target was manoeuvring and was facing a 70 degree sharp angle from me so you can’t yap about drag and such - speed difference does make a difference in this scenario and that’s why the F-15C is better than the AV-8B+ in BVR for example.

[KillMe2UnlockDLC]

What about now? Gaijin please move it down real quick.

[somebody_Else]

Ask for decompression, not more compression

[TPS_Hydra]

I think you forget the part that the J-11A is a carbon copy of the J-11/SU-27SK other than the RVV-AE and MAWS, the SU-34 already sits at 13.3 but asking for this thing to go down is against the law.

Yes, it retains the old N001 and SPO-15LM, both found on the Soviet SU-27 which sits at 13.0 lmao