I just took a look at the gimbal limits. Its 60deg. Isn’t that standard? Most radars have a gimbal limit of 60deg no?
I just took a look at the gimbal limits. Its 60deg. Isn’t that standard
Got the KLJ-7 and Kopyo-21 mixed up for a second, ignore that.
The difference in speed of the JF17 and Su-34 is not enough to favour the R-77
Just tested it out, the JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.08 and wing rips slightly above that with a full A2A loadout on the deck. The JF-17 is also equipped with the RD-93 engine and therefor lacks a lot of thrust unlike the SU-34.
You’re strictly using the Su-34 for BVR right? Gimbal limits don’t matter as much over long distances
If you want to maintain a soft lock whilst notching then a good gimbal limit is mandatory, don’t tell me you honestly believe gimbal limit for a radar is nothing of note?
Constantly having to point your nose to fire R-73s on the Su-34 will just make you constantly bleed speed
And yet again this is a 13.3 aircraft nothing top tier worthy like the J-10A or upcoming F-15E, this is something which would act as a balancing feature in War Thunder and if it was equipped with a HMS it would easily be 13.7.
Even if you slave your R-73s to radar, theres will be delay from TWS acquisition
Legit nobody uses TWS to slave a IR missile, you have ACM for that (and that’s what ACM was literally made for, close range locks for missile slaving 💀).
And for dogfights? Well you have 1 good turn and no HMS
Well you just described all Flankers in-game, they have a ridiculous amount of speed bleed compared to their adversaries.
I have the Su-27SM and played it before the missile buff. Its basically the J-11A thats 500kg lighter, better RWR, and 1 more DL. I certainly know what its capable of
Genuine tomfoolery, do you honestly believe the SU-27SM and J-11A are even comparable?
Here is a list of things the SU-27SM does better than the J-11A:
- Longer radar range
- More DL Channels
- More missiles
- Better Digital RWR
- Better avionics for simulator (inside the cockpit)
- Better A2G ordinances
- Faster scan rates of radar
The JF17 rips roughly at 1430IAS on the deck (roughly M1.18), I just tested. Now it was with 2 less missiles but I don’t think its gonna make a massive difference. So either 2 extra missile reduces the JF17’s top speed on the deck to M1.08 or you’re lying.
Its 60deg gimbal limits relax. That’s standard, most NATO radars have 60deg and even the Flankers. I don’t know why you’re treating the JF17’s gimbal limits like its ass.
Correct. I’m just mentioning it because you mentioned how the Su-34 is “more than capable” on the deck. There is truth to that statement, but against other aircraft with HMD it lags behind.
The Su-34’s ACM is a box, not ideal for dogfighting unlike the Su-27’s vertical ACM. Even if you get a lock, once you get into the merge, you’re gonna lose that lock and need to re-acquire with a box ACM 💀💀💀
I found using TWS on the Su-34 to be useful for dogfighting on the dev. I guess you wouldn’t know.
They have a lot of speed bleed but the Su-34 is even worse. What’s worse than worse is that the Su-34 doesn’t even get HMS.
Uh not really that useful. The J-11 has like 70-80km max range, and the Su-27 has 100km. I’m sure you’re gonna be firing missiles beyond 70-80km for sure.
Already mentioned this. Its 1 extra DL, it can be useful sometimes.
I said pre-buff Su-27SM. Please read.
Already mentioned.
Uh in ARB? I feel like you’re grasping at straws with this one.
They have the same scan rate.
If the community could not continuously advocate for compression that would be great
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12.3s definitely don’t need another Fox 3 plane ruining their game.
Well its already too late anyway, the Su-34 is coming, the F-4ICE is going to 13.0, and the AMRAAM Viggen is coming.
Av8B should go down, no reason not to, could even do 12.7 if 9M removed. Just too slow, from experience, it can not do the AMRAAM spam cause speed caps its height and kinetic performance of AMRAAM, and also Fakour at same BR is way more efficient.
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Especially JF17, which is even slower, thanks to the single Mig29 engine although not being half the weight, its like Mig21 but heavier lol.
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The JF17 rips roughly at 1430IAS on the deck (roughly M1.18), I just tested. Now it was with 2 less missiles but I don’t think its gonna make a massive difference
Just tested both the JF-17 fully loaded and Flanker fully loaded and here are my results:
The JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.06/1.05 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.14 and the Flanker fully loaded redlines at Mach 1.15 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.30 - all on the deck.
That’s a pretty sizeable difference to me but what can I tell you?
Its 60deg gimbal limits relax. That’s standard, most NATO radars have 60deg and even the Flankers
I answered this in my message above - “Got the KLJ-7 and Kopyo-21 mixed up for a second, ignore that”
Correct. I’m just mentioning it because you mentioned how the Su-34 is “more than capable” on the deck. There is truth to that statement, but against other aircraft with HMD it lags behind
And the J-11A lacks behind in situational awareness as you have both a worse radar and worse RWR than your adversaries. Both of these are one of the most important things for BR and you’re currently overlooking it.
The Su-34’s ACM is a box, not ideal for dogfighting unlike the Su-27’s vertical ACM. Even if you get a lock, once you get into the merge, you’re gonna lose that lock and need to re-acquire with a box ACM
And this includes nearly all 13.3 aircraft in-game, congratulation. The exception to this would be the SU-27S and J-11 and excluding them most and if not all lack HMS.
If the J-11A was to move down to 13.3 then it’d be the only ARH capable platform with a HMS - a good redeeming factor for its bad RWR and radar.
Uh not really that useful. The J-11 has like 70-80km max range, and the Su-27 has 100km
Yeah why not artificially nerf all radars in-game to 50km as you won’t be engaging them further anyways right?
I said pre-buff Su-27SM. Please read
Irrelevant, I ignored it because it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion, we are talking about the current state of the game and not when 13.0 use to be top tier for aviation - don’t add silly childish rules.
Uh in ARB? I feel like you’re grasping at straws with this one
No, just overall does everything the J-11A does but better, this isn’t me grabbing straws but making a good assessment. When the SU-27SM does everything better than the J-11A I don’t see why it should sit at the same GRB and ARB BRs.
Do you stop as soon as you see “reduce speed”? Because you know you can go faster as long as you know the absolute wing rip speed? (Which is like 1430-1450Kmh IAS or M1.18-1.20)
On the deck, HMS is far more important. Because on the deck you can kind of ignore your RWR as long as you’re abusing multipath. For the radar? Sure.
So where’s the part where you tell me you’re gonna dogfight with a box ACM?
What? Where did 50km come from?
70km is plenty. The farthest I’ve gotten a kill with an R-27ER is 70km and beyond that the missile runs out of guidance time.
Well maybe you’re stupid enough to try 100km R-77 shots I guess.
Tf? I’m applying my knowledge of the Su-27SM (pre-buff) to the J-11A. That’s why I said pre-buff. I’m not comparing the two planes, its not some “silly child rules”. Jesus Christ.
“Erm, Irrelevant, the discussion is tagged as air-rb, ground ordnance does not matter” /s
JF17 has box ACM, no HMD, worse radar, similar rwr, much slower. Same BR? I wouldn’t say box ACM as worse feature.
I did have a thread, although it is dead now, J11A being same BR as Su27SM in GRB seem even more ridiculous than ARB lol.
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It has PL-12s, that’s why its 13.3 despite its flaws.
That’s just BR compression.
Less, and the top speed… Pretty notable in dogfights that it cannot keep up.
PL12 vs R77 is not as big of a gap as one would think. It is much more like better BVR if they fly straight and have lower height but not quite multipathing whilst no chaff thrown, whilst in WVR, much worse than R77 in terms of manoeuvrability, energy wise, actually worse in some cases, better missiles for sure, but not a huge gap.
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Do you stop as soon as you see “reduce speed”? Because you know you can go faster as long as you know the absolute wing rip speed?
Read my message again, redline as in the reduce speed symbol pops up and can’t surpass literally means the aircraft is incapable of surpassing said speeds in certain environments. I was testing all of this in test drive on the deck and continued straight until the aircraft couldn’t anymore.
On the deck, HMS is far more important. Because on the deck you can kind of ignore your RWR as long as you’re abusing multipath
Wrong, you can’t ignore your RWR even when you’re on the deck as missiles coming from above both IR and SARH/ARH will still send you to hell and back. You usually have to slightly notch SARH/ARH missiles coming from above in order for it to not proxy near you and damage a part of your aircraft.
Terrain also matters, in some environments you won’t be able to terrain hug as there will be small dips in certain areas.
Tf? I’m applying my knowledge of the Su-27SM (pre-buff) to the J-11A. That’s why I said pre-buff . I’m not comparing the two planes, its not some “silly child rules”. Jesus Christ
The current discussion is about the future and current performance of the J-11A compared to both the SU-27SM and mainly the SU-34, pre-buff SU-27SM is off-topic and shouldn’t be brought up.
Pre-buff J-11A also lacks MAWS making it identical to the J-11 other than having RVV-AEs.
I’d expect better from someone who continues and continues about the same argument of “speed bleed” and “no HMS”, yapping final boss here.
Really? Because I tested the Su-27SM’s top speed on the deck with 12 missiles (so theoretically the top speed should be lower than the J-11A) and turns out it tops out at M1.17 not M1.14. Also the JF17, 4 missiles, max fuel, tops out at M1.18 on the deck.
I said kind of. You don’t need to pay full attention to it, just know if the missile headed towards you is radar or IR. Also you can avoid getting hit on the deck if you don’t fly in a straight line, doing small turns (1-3G maneuvers) will suffice and you won’t get proxied.
If you remember you questioned if I even knew how the J-11A flew. Then I said the Su-27SM (pre-buff) is similar to the J-11A minus a few things so I know how it flies. Hence where the “pre-buff” came from and you made a big deal out of that.
I really don’t wanna hear it from the guy who stops accelerating after “reduce speed”. Or “ground ordnance” in ARB, really? Or 100km R-77 BVR lmao. That’s called “grasping at straws”.
The R-77 has a lot more drag than the Pl-12, making the R-77 maneuver rapidly depletes its energy. The Pl-12s also have much better range, right behind the AAM-4 and as for its maneuverability, its just right behind the R-77.
Really? Because I tested the Su-27SM’s top speed on the deck with 12 missiles (so theoretically the top speed should be lower than the J-11A) and turns out it tops out at M1.17 not M1.14. Also the JF17, 4 missiles, max fuel, tops out at M1.18 on the deck
I have done both with expert crew and all results are what I’ve gotten, is this you trying to call me a liar? Both failed to surpass a certain speed limit whilst fully equipped but the Flanker far exceeds the JF-17 top speed wise - hold the cope.
I said kind of. You don’t need to pay full attention to it, just know if the missile headed towards you is radar or IR
Missiles fired above and especially large ones like the R-27 or AIM-54 usually tend to blow you up either way, and 1g to 3g manoeuvres won’t save you from a missile like the Fakour.
Never ignore your RWR, the first thing you must learn is having a high level of awareness and modern RWRs do so and by ignoring them you are essentially going in blind - maybe this is a new concept to you?
If you remember you questioned if I even knew how the J-11A flew. Then I said the Su-27SM (pre-buff) is similar to the J-11A minus a few things so I know how it flies. Hence where the “pre-buff” came from and you made a big deal out of that
Still irrelevant to the discussion, you haven’t played the J-11A before and therefor can’t make a 100% accurate assessment, and the same applies for the JF-17. The SU-34 on the other hand would be a heavier but better J-11A without the HMS and the MAWS addition, that’s something I could make a educated guess on.
You’ve so far made many assumptions on the JF-17s performance in a general sense and by the looks of it the same for the J-11A, you continue to underestimate a good RWR/radar and continue to downplay the importance of multiple DL channels.
The J-11A is the worst aircraft for extended ranges and even something like the SU-34 would be more than capable of outperforming it in that specific factor. The importance of HMS is more of a annoyance at longer ranges and the speed bleed is something you’re overestimating, look at the Tornado F.3 Late which sits at the same BR of 13.3 if you think the SU-34 has a bad FM.
I really don’t wanna hear it from the guy who stops accelerating after “reduce speed”. Or “ground ordnance” in ARB, really? Or 100km R-77 BVR lmao. That’s called “grasping at straws”
Firstly what you’ve claimed is just entirely untrue, I held WEP and continued in a straight line on the deck then counted my results and the GRB BR for the J-11A is also a discussion point which had an entire thread dedicated to it, it’s something I brought up as the SU-27SM in both air and ground is superior to the J-11A.
The R-77 has a lot more drag than the Pl-12, making the R-77 maneuver rapidly depletes its energy. The Pl-12s also have much better range, right behind the AAM-4 and as for its maneuverability, its just right behind the R-77
The platform of which the SD-10A is being launched from (that being the JF-17) lacks the essential amount of speed for long range engagements. The speed bleed is also a large issue for the aircraft below Mach and that’s something I haven’t seen you bring up before.
You like to select and pick which arguments to throw at me and leave others out which will make your argument look weaker, nothing you’ve said is really logical in a in-game standpoint.
No I’m accusing you of not accelerating lmao. Because M1.08 for the JF17 and M1.14 for the Flanker is the “reduce speed” indicator, not when they rip or top out. I’d know because I own the Flanker equipped with 12 missiles so to bias in favour of you (12 missiles on the Su-27SM is more drag than 10 missiles on the J-11A).
You can literally see the Flanker topping out at M1.19 at FULL FUEL, 12 MISSILES with 4 x R-27s to bias in favour of you.
Its difficult to make that consistent. You’d need to be at a relatively high angle to your target which in top tier is difficult to achieve because you’d either need to be close and above your target (not gonna happen), or at space (not gonna happen).
If it was this easy to counter multipathing, people wouldn’t be abusing it lol. The fact is that its difficult to counter multipathing especially with the radar altimeter.
Do you not read on purpose? This is like the 3rd time I have to mention “kind of”. You can kind of ignore the direction at low altitude and close range because you can physically see the targets, you’re not gonna be notching at multipath altitude so there’s no point in accurately gauging where the missile’s radar is coming from. No wonder why you think the Su-34 is better than the J-11A lol.
Its not hard to know what its like to fly the J-11. The J-11 is literally a Flanker. I know how shit the SPO-15 is because the base Flanker literally had it. You act like the J-11 and the Su-27 are worlds apart when in reality they’re similar with a few differences (pre-buff at least).
Holy shit man I know how the Tornado flies. I never compared the Su-34 to the Tornado. The reason why the Tornado is 13.3 is because of the AMRAAM + 9Ms.
I’ve already explained above. You’re not accelerating beyond “reduce speed”, its obvious. Even a full fuel, 12 missiles, 4 x R-27 loaded Flanker can reach M1.19 so I’m not sure where you got M1.14 from unless you’re stopping right at “reduce speed” indicator. Its common knowledge that its not the absolute top speed of an aircraft but who knows, you thought the J-11A had a slower scan rate than the Su-27SM or a radar lock beyond 70-80km matters lol.
GRB is a different BR set. There is no point in bringing it up in ARB BR discussions.
Funny thing is that I didn’t even bring up the JF17 is the first place. You brought it up in context with the Su-34’s rival in BVR, hence why I don’t mention its FM. You bring up arguments and act like I brought them up.
The fact is that the Pl-12 is superior to the R-77 in BVR, the difference between the Su-34 and JF-17’s speed won’t change the outcome.
This is why no one uses R-77s for BVR. You can delude all you want with 100km R-77s.
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I’m not going to say whether or not J-11A should go down in BR, but Gaijin choosing to add J-11A (and its specifically the 2010s MLU variant) and not giving it the N001V and RWR improvement will always be beyond me. The J-11A is the worst 13.7, I don’t think anyone will say that I’m wrong about this. At the very least with Su-27SM you can provide datalink to two ARH missiles, and the Su-27SM can now carry more R-77s compared to J-11A. The J-11A is also the heavier aircraft by 500 kilograms empty.
Gaijin can add an early block J-11B instead without the improved engines. So what is wrong with the Flanker finally having a decent radar and decent fox 3s? Early J-11B is not far superior to the F-15C that we have in game, which is MSIP II in the 2000s. In fact, they are comparable in many ways.
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Russia should’ve gotten the batch of Su-27SM with improved engines. And if that isn’t enough, maybe even R-77-1.
So the Su-27SM3.
Yeah, because that would give Flanker somewhat better energy retention and flight performance, since Gaijin seems unwilling to address the underperforming flight model of the Su-27 currently. Their excuse is that it is “close enough.” But I don’t think underperforming by 0.4gs is close, but oh well.