J-11A To 13.3

[TPS_Hydra]

Did you get to test the Su-34’s top speed? I assume the Su-34 has comparable top speed to the J-11A/Su-27SM

The SU-34 should have a superior maximum speed limit at higher altitudes and and a lower maximum speed limit at lower altitudes due to air density. If someone wants to prove me wrong be my guest, the other factors still make the SU-34 a comparable and if not superior aircraft to the J-11A.

Also acceleration will matter a lot with the Su-34. You’re gonna be dumping a lot of speed when turning

For lower altitudes were most fights take place sure but I’m not referring to that, I’m mostly talking about situational awareness, BVR capabilities and avionics.

This doesn’t even take into account the cockpit, the SU-34 is just a straight up better aircraft in simulator for both air combat and ground missions.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

For lower altitudes were most fights take place sure but I’m not referring to that, I’m mostly talking about situational awareness, BVR capabilities and avionics.

So when you encounter a missile I guess you’re just gonna fly straight? You’re gonna be notching and notching requires turning.

I guess have fun contesting high altitude against F-15E/Is.

[TPS_Hydra]

I guess have fun contesting high altitude against F-15E/Is

You’re obviously not going to be beating something which sits at a higher BR than you, kind of defeats the purpose of BRs. Compare the SU-34 to something which also sits at 13.3 like the Tornado F.3 Late or JF-17.

So when you encounter a missile I guess you’re just gonna fly straight

Just tap S whilst you turn to sustain speed, this isn’t some secret formula which isn’t public to anyone but common knowledge?

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

You’re obviously not going to be beating something which sits at a higher BR than you, kind of defeats the purpose of BRs. Compare the SU-34 to something which also sits at 13.3 like the Tornado F.3 Late of JF-17.

Sure. Even a JF17 will annihilate an Su-34 in BVR.

@TPS_Hydra

Just tap S whilst you turn to sustain speed, this isn’t some secret formula which isn’t public to anyone but common knowledge?

What? That prolongs your turn and widens your turning radius. Youre gonna be notching/recommiting in 2-3 business days.

Have you flown the Su-34 in the dev?

[TPS_Hydra]

Sure. Even a JF17 will annihilate an Su-34 in BVR

You must be kidding, the JF-17 is barely capable of Mach without disintegrating in mid air and has significantly less missiles than the SU-34 lmao.

What? That prolongs your turn and widens your turning radius

This is a BVR engagement, which part of that don’t you understand? That only matter within a sub 10km engagement which isn’t classified as beyond visual range.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

You must be kidding, the JF-17 is barely capable of Mach without disintegrating in mid air and has significantly less missiles than the SU-34 lmao.

But it also has PL-12s which is significantly better than R-77s. Also, you will always get uptiered, its relevant to talk about 13.7s. Thats just how it is, 13.3s will always get sucked into 13.7s.

@TPS_Hydra

turning radius

This is a BVR engagement, which part of that don’t you understand? That only matter within a sub 10km engagement which isn’t classified as beyond visual range.

I hope you know you cant force BVR the entire match. Its only effective for the first 3 minutes before people from below notice your contrail and start firing from all angles.

And I will ask again, have you flown the Su-34 in the dev? Because it seems like youre greatly underestimating how heavy the Su-34 really is.

[TPS_Hydra]

But it also has PL-12s which is significantly better than R-77s

And like I said before, the speed of an aircraft can either drastically limit the range or boost the range of a missile. The AIM-120Bs mounted on the Sea Harrier FA.2 are less potent than the AIM-120As mounted on the F-15C or F-15E.

The gimbal limit of the JF-17s radar is also pretty a**, you continue to ignore key things which determine a vehicles effectiveness.

I hope you know you cant force BVR the entire match. Its only effective for the first 3 minutes before people from below notice your contrail and start firing from all angles

You say this as if beyond 10km engagements don’t occur in every single match, BVR is what War Thunder is going to start leaning towards and the only limiting factor would be the small maps.

Even on the deck the SU-34 is more than capable of engaging and defending itself, the R-73s are still useable even without a HMS, use the long box ACM and the R-77s overall aren’t very effective missiles but within 15km they’re still fine.

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And I will ask again, have you flown the Su-34 in the dev? Because it seems like youre greatly underestimating how heavy the Su-34 really is

I haven’t bothered flying the SU-34 or in fact any new incoming vehicles but I’ve played much worse aircraft before. The Tornado F.3 Late is hands down the worst 13.3 vehicle in-game without a doubt and the SU-34 doesn’t even hold a candle to that FM wise (by how bad it is).

Same applies to you however, have you played the J-11A, JF-17 or other aircraft mentioned before? Presumably not since you’re overestimating them.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

And like I said before, the speed of an aircraft can either drastically limit the range or boost the range of a missile. The AIM-120Bs mounted on the Sea Harrier FA.2 are less potent than the AIM-120As mounted on the F-15C or F-15E.

The difference in speed of the JF17 and Su-34 is not enough to favour the R-77.

@TPS_Hydra

The gimbal limit of the JF-17s radar is also pretty a**, you continue to ignore key things which determine a vehicles effectiveness.

You’re strictly using the Su-34 for BVR right? Gimbal limits don’t matter as much over long distances.

@TPS_Hydra

You say this as if beyond 10km engagements don’t occur in every single match, BVR is what War Thunder is going to start leaning towards and the only limiting factor would be the small maps.

Below 20km I don’t consider true BVR, maybe at low altitudes. 20km high altitude is quite close, notching like a boat wont be a good idea.

@TPS_Hydra

Even on the deck the SU-34 is more than capable of engaging and defending itself, the R-73s are still useable even without a HMS, use the long box ACM and the R-77s overall aren’t very effective missiles but within 15km they’re still fine.

Constantly having to point your nose to fire R-73s on the Su-34 will just make you constantly bleed speed. Even if you slave your R-73s to radar, theres will be delay from TWS acquisition and target selection or locking.

And for dogfights? Well you have 1 good turn and no HMS.

@TPS_Hydra

I haven’t bothered flying the SU-34

Thats what I thought.

@TPS_Hydra

Same applies to you however, have you played the J-11A, JF-17 or other aircraft mentioned before? Presumably not since you’re overestimating them.

I have the Su-27SM and played it before the missile buff. Its basically the J-11A thats 500kg lighter, better RWR, and 1 more DL. I certainly know what its capable of.

As for the JF17, I never made comments on its FM, its the PL-12s I mentioned and its easy to graph out its capabilities against the R-77s even at a speed disadvantage.

I will say again. Youre severely overestimating the Su-34’s flight performance. That extra weight and drag is a lot. You have 1 good notch and recommit before you fall out of the sky. 1600kgf is not enough to compensate.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

The gimbal limit of the JF-17s radar is also pretty a**

I just took a look at the gimbal limits. Its 60deg. Isn’t that standard? Most radars have a gimbal limit of 60deg no?

[TPS_Hydra]

I just took a look at the gimbal limits. Its 60deg. Isn’t that standard

Got the KLJ-7 and Kopyo-21 mixed up for a second, ignore that.

The difference in speed of the JF17 and Su-34 is not enough to favour the R-77

Just tested it out, the JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.08 and wing rips slightly above that with a full A2A loadout on the deck. The JF-17 is also equipped with the RD-93 engine and therefor lacks a lot of thrust unlike the SU-34.

You’re strictly using the Su-34 for BVR right? Gimbal limits don’t matter as much over long distances

If you want to maintain a soft lock whilst notching then a good gimbal limit is mandatory, don’t tell me you honestly believe gimbal limit for a radar is nothing of note?

Constantly having to point your nose to fire R-73s on the Su-34 will just make you constantly bleed speed

And yet again this is a 13.3 aircraft nothing top tier worthy like the J-10A or upcoming F-15E, this is something which would act as a balancing feature in War Thunder and if it was equipped with a HMS it would easily be 13.7.

Even if you slave your R-73s to radar, theres will be delay from TWS acquisition

Legit nobody uses TWS to slave a IR missile, you have ACM for that (and that’s what ACM was literally made for, close range locks for missile slaving 💀).

And for dogfights? Well you have 1 good turn and no HMS

Well you just described all Flankers in-game, they have a ridiculous amount of speed bleed compared to their adversaries.

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I have the Su-27SM and played it before the missile buff. Its basically the J-11A thats 500kg lighter, better RWR, and 1 more DL. I certainly know what its capable of

Genuine tomfoolery, do you honestly believe the SU-27SM and J-11A are even comparable?

Here is a list of things the SU-27SM does better than the J-11A:

• Longer radar range
• More DL Channels
• More missiles
• Better Digital RWR
• Better avionics for simulator (inside the cockpit)
• Better A2G ordinances
• Faster scan rates of radar

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

Just tested it out, the JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.08 and wing rips slightly above that with a full A2A loadout on the deck. The JF-17 is also equipped with the RD-93 engine and therefor lacks a lot of thrust unlike the SU-34.

The JF17 rips roughly at 1430IAS on the deck (roughly M1.18), I just tested. Now it was with 2 less missiles but I don’t think its gonna make a massive difference. So either 2 extra missile reduces the JF17’s top speed on the deck to M1.08 or you’re lying.

@TPS_Hydra

If you want to maintain a soft lock whilst notching then a good gimbal limit is mandatory, don’t tell me you honestly believe gimbal limit for a radar is nothing of note?

Its 60deg gimbal limits relax. That’s standard, most NATO radars have 60deg and even the Flankers. I don’t know why you’re treating the JF17’s gimbal limits like its ass.

@TPS_Hydra

And yet again this is a 13.3 aircraft nothing top tier worthy like the J-10A or upcoming F-15E, this is something which would act as a balancing feature in War Thunder and if it was equipped with a HMS it would easily be 13.7.

Correct. I’m just mentioning it because you mentioned how the Su-34 is “more than capable” on the deck. There is truth to that statement, but against other aircraft with HMD it lags behind.

@TPS_Hydra

Legit nobody uses TWS to slave a IR missile, you have ACM for that (and that’s what ACM was literally made for, close range locks for missile slaving 💀).

The Su-34’s ACM is a box, not ideal for dogfighting unlike the Su-27’s vertical ACM. Even if you get a lock, once you get into the merge, you’re gonna lose that lock and need to re-acquire with a box ACM 💀💀💀

I found using TWS on the Su-34 to be useful for dogfighting on the dev. I guess you wouldn’t know.

@TPS_Hydra

Well you just described all Flankers in-game, they have a ridiculous amount of speed bleed compared to their adversaries.

They have a lot of speed bleed but the Su-34 is even worse. What’s worse than worse is that the Su-34 doesn’t even get HMS.

@TPS_Hydra

Better radar range

Uh not really that useful. The J-11 has like 70-80km max range, and the Su-27 has 100km. I’m sure you’re gonna be firing missiles beyond 70-80km for sure.

@TPS_Hydra

More DL Channels

Already mentioned this. Its 1 extra DL, it can be useful sometimes.

@TPS_Hydra

Missile count

I said pre-buff Su-27SM. Please read.

@TPS_Hydra

Better Digital RWR

Already mentioned.

@TPS_Hydra

Better A2G ordinances

Uh in ARB? I feel like you’re grasping at straws with this one.

@TPS_Hydra

Faster scan rates of radar

They have the same scan rate.

[WalletWorrier]

If the community could not continuously advocate for compression that would be great

[Axzuel]

12.3s definitely don’t need another Fox 3 plane ruining their game.

Well its already too late anyway, the Su-34 is coming, the F-4ICE is going to 13.0, and the AMRAAM Viggen is coming.

[141_allen]

Av8B should go down, no reason not to, could even do 12.7 if 9M removed. Just too slow, from experience, it can not do the AMRAAM spam cause speed caps its height and kinetic performance of AMRAAM, and also Fakour at same BR is way more efficient.

[141_allen]

@TPS_Hydra

Tornado F.3 Late of JF-17.

Especially JF17, which is even slower, thanks to the single Mig29 engine although not being half the weight, its like Mig21 but heavier lol.

[TPS_Hydra]

The JF17 rips roughly at 1430IAS on the deck (roughly M1.18), I just tested. Now it was with 2 less missiles but I don’t think its gonna make a massive difference

Just tested both the JF-17 fully loaded and Flanker fully loaded and here are my results:

The JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.06/1.05 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.14 and the Flanker fully loaded redlines at Mach 1.15 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.30 - all on the deck.

That’s a pretty sizeable difference to me but what can I tell you?

Its 60deg gimbal limits relax. That’s standard, most NATO radars have 60deg and even the Flankers

I answered this in my message above - “Got the KLJ-7 and Kopyo-21 mixed up for a second, ignore that”

Correct. I’m just mentioning it because you mentioned how the Su-34 is “more than capable” on the deck. There is truth to that statement, but against other aircraft with HMD it lags behind

And the J-11A lacks behind in situational awareness as you have both a worse radar and worse RWR than your adversaries. Both of these are one of the most important things for BR and you’re currently overlooking it.

The Su-34’s ACM is a box, not ideal for dogfighting unlike the Su-27’s vertical ACM. Even if you get a lock, once you get into the merge, you’re gonna lose that lock and need to re-acquire with a box ACM

And this includes nearly all 13.3 aircraft in-game, congratulation. The exception to this would be the SU-27S and J-11 and excluding them most and if not all lack HMS.

If the J-11A was to move down to 13.3 then it’d be the only ARH capable platform with a HMS - a good redeeming factor for its bad RWR and radar.

Uh not really that useful. The J-11 has like 70-80km max range, and the Su-27 has 100km

Yeah why not artificially nerf all radars in-game to 50km as you won’t be engaging them further anyways right?

I said pre-buff Su-27SM. Please read

Irrelevant, I ignored it because it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion, we are talking about the current state of the game and not when 13.0 use to be top tier for aviation - don’t add silly childish rules.

Uh in ARB? I feel like you’re grasping at straws with this one

No, just overall does everything the J-11A does but better, this isn’t me grabbing straws but making a good assessment. When the SU-27SM does everything better than the J-11A I don’t see why it should sit at the same GRB and ARB BRs.

[Axzuel]

@TPS_Hydra

Just tested both the JF-17 fully loaded and Flanker fully loaded and here are my results:

The JF-17 redlines at Mach 1.06/1.05 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.14 and the Flanker fully loaded redlines at Mach 1.15 and doesn’t surpass Mach 1.30 - all on the deck.

That’s a pretty sizeable difference to me but what can I tell you?

Do you stop as soon as you see “reduce speed”? Because you know you can go faster as long as you know the absolute wing rip speed? (Which is like 1430-1450Kmh IAS or M1.18-1.20)

@TPS_Hydra

And the J-11A lacks behind in situational awareness as you have both a worse radar and worse RWR than your adversaries. Both of these are one of the most important things for BR and you’re currently overlooking it.

On the deck, HMS is far more important. Because on the deck you can kind of ignore your RWR as long as you’re abusing multipath. For the radar? Sure.

@TPS_Hydra

And this includes nearly all 13.3 aircraft in-game, congratulation. The exception to this would be the SU-27S and J-11 and excluding them most and if not all lack HMS.

If the J-11A was to move down to 13.3 then it’d be the only ARH capable platform with a HMS - a good redeeming factor for its bad RWR and radar.

So where’s the part where you tell me you’re gonna dogfight with a box ACM?

@TPS_Hydra

Yeah why not artificially nerf all radars in-game to 50km as you won’t be engaging them further anyways right?

What? Where did 50km come from?

70km is plenty. The farthest I’ve gotten a kill with an R-27ER is 70km and beyond that the missile runs out of guidance time.

Well maybe you’re stupid enough to try 100km R-77 shots I guess.

@TPS_Hydra

Irrelevant, I ignored it because it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion, we are talking about the current state of the game and not when 13.0 use to be top tier for aviation - don’t add silly childish rules.

Tf? I’m applying my knowledge of the Su-27SM (pre-buff) to the J-11A. That’s why I said pre-buff. I’m not comparing the two planes, its not some “silly child rules”. Jesus Christ.

@TPS_Hydra

No, just overall does everything the J-11A does but better, this isn’t me grabbing straws but making a good assessment. When the SU-27SM does everything better than the J-11A I don’t see why it should sit at the same GRB and ARB BRs.

“Erm, Irrelevant, the discussion is tagged as air-rb, ground ordnance does not matter” /s

[141_allen]

JF17 has box ACM, no HMD, worse radar, similar rwr, much slower. Same BR? I wouldn’t say box ACM as worse feature.

@Axzuel

“Erm, Irrelevant, the discussion is tagged as air-rb, ground ordnance does not matter” /s

I did have a thread, although it is dead now, J11A being same BR as Su27SM in GRB seem even more ridiculous than ARB lol.

[Axzuel]

@141_allen

JF17 has box ACM, no HMD, worse radar, similar rwr, much slower. Same BR? I wouldn’t say box ACM as worse feature.

It has PL-12s, that’s why its 13.3 despite its flaws.

@141_allen

I did have a thread, although it is dead now, J11A being same BR as Su27SM in GRB seem even more ridiculous than ARB lol.

That’s just BR compression.

[141_allen]

@Axzuel

It has PL-12s, that’s why its 13.3 despite its flaws.

Less, and the top speed… Pretty notable in dogfights that it cannot keep up.
PL12 vs R77 is not as big of a gap as one would think. It is much more like better BVR if they fly straight and have lower height but not quite multipathing whilst no chaff thrown, whilst in WVR, much worse than R77 in terms of manoeuvrability, energy wise, actually worse in some cases, better missiles for sure, but not a huge gap.