It's time for Gaijin to finally reverse the ahistorical nerf to BOL countermeasures [Poll]

Dev Server "Leviathans" General Discussion - Dev Server
136

For that matter, the F-14B struggles, but its not because of the weakness of the BOL pods. Rather, its the fact that the opponents have access to better missiles, really forcing it to play extremely defensively. The Phoenix can be fun, and at times gets you a kill even in an uptier.

Its that the only missile useable at such a high BR is a missile that is doctrinally outdated, besides being the worst SARH missile.

The F-14B struggles from the same syndrome, the Me-262s do: too good for a lower BR, to bad for a higher BR.

Thats why most people play the F-14A, or the IRIAF Tomcat or the F/A-18A - a more forgiving BR for the capabilities of those aircraft.

As for the Harrier: not all planes have to be good at ARB. If I have a plane that fills a niche role, or it is good in GRB whereas struggling in ARB, Im still okay with that - I can still have fun with it.

Tornados… well. Iconic, and underwhelming, suffers the same problems that say the Mig-21s can suffer from: the ADVs/ Fighters were always more interceptors than air superiority fighters, and their main target is missing. Dont get me wrong I still find enjoyment from my Mig-21s.

137

So if it actually held a CM advantage, it would greatly balance out the fact it has some of the weakest AAMs at that BR.

But that is just stupid.

“No you cant play your aircraft in aircraft gamemodes because its meant to be used in GRB?”

If that is the case. Allow first spawn CAS in GRB.

Again… Why?

When there is a legitmate buff to give them. (Actually several) why should they be rendered unplayable just because “Reasons”

6 Likes
138

The Tomcat with the BOL POD Buffed would actually cause a dilemma - its CM count with so strong CMs would outright make it go up in BR as it would be an aircraft that vastly outperforms most others at that BR.

But it doesnt have anything in the weapon loadout that would make it viable at higher BRs - especially after a BOL pod buff.

So the BOL pod buff, would also nerf several BOL pod carrying aircraft, as there would be a valid argument for putting them at higher BR - the strength of BOL pods.

Now the F-14B Tomcat can face… F-4E? “Early” Mig-29s, Su-27s. The F-4s in this case would have truly subpar weapons, especially considering the stronger BOL pods.

Pushing those aircraft to a lower BR would cause more issues for lower BRs.

Out of all these aircraft, only the Flanker would have enough missiles to burn through the countermeasures count of a Tomcat - although if a single pop of 2 flares / chaff is enough to fool any incoming missile, than not even a flanker.

I think the top-tiers are decompressed enough.

First spawn CAS - so you just want to curbstomp players without any challenge? Or in that case, everybody would start as CAS - meaning that there is no need to grind / play ground war thunder.

Earn it! :)

139

Well. If im not allowed to play the Harrier Gr7 in ARB/ASB because its too weak with the nerfed BOL. Then the only place I can play it is GRB. Then I want to be able to play it without having to spawn the crappy tanks first.

There are gamemodes other than GRB btw. Just because you can use an aircraft in GRB. Doesnt mean it only can be used in GRB.

1 Like
140

I have been binge-CAS-chilling in ARB too.

I havent touched Sim though.

Would stronger / buffed BOL pods help the harrier?

If you die to AI, its on you.(even if AI in sim is borked).

If a player wants you dead, BOL pods wont help. You are flying a subsonic ground attacker.

Crappy tank? Whats your problem with them?

If you dont want to play GRB, than dont - there is non reason to suggest ideas that would make it worse for GRB players.

For other purposes, why would you bring a ground attackern/ bomber into Air battles, a scene which has been dominated by fighters for years now? Thats a generic problem though, totally unrelated to the BOL pods though. I understand - at times I play CAS in ARB too to chill - but then again why?

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Yes. It would actually mean that the Harrier Gr7s 12.3 BR was actually warranted. If not it should be 12.0.

Sea Harrier FA2 is 13.0. Hard to justify it being even 12.7 at the moment.

Hu?

There are enemy player aircraft in Sim too…

They would mean you could actually flare an incoming IR missile and then you could dogfight them. At the moment, good luck flaring an R-60M, let alone an R-73.

So aircraft, with 0 CAS ability (like the Tornado F3), must be artifiically nerfed to the point of being nearly unplayable in Air only modes because other CAS aircraft are too strong in GRB?

That is litereally the most stupid argument I have ever heard.

Because there are ground target?

In Air Sim. the battles are more often than not won or lost by the ground attackers, not the fighters…

And why should aircraft only be playable in GRB? Why should should a mudmover like the Harrier Gr7 or Tornado Gr4 be artificially nerfed in ARB?

People say all the time “if you want to play aircraft, play it in the air modes” and yet im now being told not to play an aircraft in air modes and only play them in GRB? (which then leads me back to my early point. If the I can only play an aircraft in GRB, then I should be able to play it without playing tanks first)

and again. Doesnt address pure fighters like the Viggen D/Di, Tornado F3/F3 Late or Sea Harrier FA2.

(though for the record. Harrier Gr7 is an excellent fighter in ARB/ASB, even with all the nerfs it has to carry)

3 Likes
142

The tornados have been bad since introduction in WT. The F3 late is overtiered even, not necessarily because of BOL pods - see F-4F Ice also struggles. An old airframe, with modern weapons. They are both closer to 3rd gen than 4th gen, even at best they are gen 3.5.

That is made worse by the fact that they are NOT air superiority fighters. They are interceptors (Mig 21, 23, 29 are also, the 29 had ASF features as well, the 23s FM is vastly overperforming, and this I admit). Mind you: the Tornado fighters were long range interceptors or strike-interdictors. Their primary targets are missing from the game, although the Su-24M makes for an interesting case here.)

The Harrier you mentioned : you acknowledged they have a borked heat signature, something that could be fixed by… fixing the harrier 1st, and then see if that helps it without the BOL pods.

The harrier as a fighter. It is subsonic. It would probably fare well as a dogfighter, but at a BR where BVR already starts to take shape.

The Viggen - another gen 3 jet.
Btw it does very well even without BOL pods I see it flaring off missiles.

The DI is… another problematic jet - its overtiered but not because of the BOL pods.

About Sim: I cant help. I have no experience but I have a feeling that even if the BOL pods were buffed youd have eaten those R60s.

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So the Tornado F3 must be artificially nerfed at 12.0 because?

Im really not sure what your argument is here.

So drop its BR down then. If BOL cannot be fixed and “interceptors are bad”. Then why is it 12.0 and not 11.7 like the Mig-23MLD is?

1 Like
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The F3 at 12.0?

Look at the Phantoms. Similar loadout, 4 SARHs, not sure how many IR missiles, if my memory serves me right 2, maybe 4?

Compared to that the Mig 23 has only 2 SARH missiles.

It also has a useable RWR unlike the Mig-23, mind you for me the Mig 23 RWR was already sufficient.

Has a somewhat better radar, mitigated by possibly a slightly worse missile.

As for the BOL pods… I was flying the Tornado IDS - i never really struggled to flare of IR missiles, SARH missiles were arguably harder, mostly dying due to just falling asleep while flying that thing. Yeah, I have to drop 10 chaff out of 640 maybe? Arguably even less at times.

Toenados are slow though, thats something I admit.

You could put it at 11.7, and wouldnt change much, neither for the Nado or its opponents, neither in up or down tier.

Id say its a pretty average performer at that BR, but at 12.0 even things like F-4S suffer in an uptier. The difference, is that the F-4S doesnt have BOL pods. I use the F-4S because thats the only 12.0 aircraft that comes to my mind, besides the Viggen D. Here the problem is not BOL pods. The problem is that you fight 4th gen aircraft in a 3rd gen aircraft.
Against their own BR they are both pretty formidable, and outright OP against anything at 11.0, with the only reason losing to an 11.0 aircraft being engaging in a fight where the 11.0 dogfighters are more evenly matched or outright better.

Or losing situational awareness.

With that said, I havent seen a single Nado F3 at 11.0. They are either sucked in by uptiers or non-existent, Id argue most people skip on it, since we have the Bison, as its not needed to be played to get into higher BRs. Id understand someone playing the Nado F3 after the F-4EJunk, but since we have the Bison, I can clearly see it fading into obscurity.

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BOL =/= BOZ two very different dispensers.

8 Likes
146

The Tornado IDS has 56 large calibre flares and 1200 large calibre chaff from its BOZ pods

The Tornado F3 has 32 Large calibre CMs and 320 BOL.

Of course its easier to flare or chaff in the Tornado IDS

BOL chaff is 1/4 the strength of regular chaff and large chaff is about 5.5x stronger than regular chaff. So that meant you needed to drop 10 large chaff from the Tornado IDS to defeat an SARH. In the F3 Id probably have to drop about 200 ish to match the same amount of chaff you dropped with those 10 LCMs in the IDS.

You could fix BOL.

1 Like
147

You could fix BOL, than have all the valid arguments to push it upnin BR, where the tornado would struggle.

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It gets downtiered because it doesn’t have proper BOL. that’s all you need to know.

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Theyre strong in a dogfight but their IR signature is so gimped. My personal pick is the T.10 and ive hit 2KD in it after mastering the cannons (should be higher but its taken a while to get used to them after the Gau12) Its very fun in airRB but you gotta pick your fights. aim9L to the rear is a death sentance since the BOL is poor + your IR Signature (thrust signature). Overall recommend, the cannons are such an upgrade over ADEN30 its insane. imagine Mauser27 but it does way more damage and has a higher firerate.

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Which are much stronger then the aim7s, IOG is no joke at 11.7 (certain airframes in a down tier down even have an RWR (Jaguar E im looking at you))

Again, i think its compression thats the issue rather then the planes. one could argue the MiG23MLD (or even the ML, but most certainly the MLD) could be put too 12.0. just because of the missiles.

Then again i do love baiting them into a dogfight with my 11.3 harriers. 1 v 2 a pair of MLDs and they physically cant get nose on target before they eat a 25mm. skill issue, poor coordination or perhaps im just goated in the T.10

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The Mig 23s could be put to 12.0 yes.

With that said, I wouldnt bring a harrier into an ARB match, though Id love to goof around with it, especially the ones with the 120s.

Point is that, while the Harrier could viff and do well in a dogfight, and competent enemy would try to keep a distance. Just like I dont start a turn fight against the Su-25s or A-10s, rather extend away from them, if they are caught slightly off-guard, or off-angle, I know Ill be far away by the time they would have a launch on me.

As you mentioned the Harrier heat signature is borked - but that could (have) be(en) solved already with a rework on heat signatures specific to that plane - or general. On the other end of the spectrum, the F-5s even with full AB on are relatively cold compared to what they should be.

1 Like
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No. It is undertiered, because it would face superior missiles and platforms if it was any higher.

Viggen Di, F-4F Ice, Nado F3 Late all face this issue: outdated platforms with modern weaponry.

If you buff BOL pods, the standars F3 could see itself raised in BR to 12.3 or arguably even 12.7, with the F3 late being uotiered to 13.3. You would then complain it being too high in BR.

The Viggen D, Nado F3 early are at a fair BR, that they share with things like the more modern Phantoms. Mind you i rarely if ever see them, as statistically speaking an uptier is favored by the match-maker. There is an argument to push them down to 11.7 with the current effectiveness of BOL pods - at the same time it would completely destroy lower BRs at that point by just using a single brain cell - keep the distance. Its probably the situation of the Me-262- too good to be put at lower BRs and too bad to be put at higher BRs.

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If they get a corrected FM this could prove very very difficult.

That and the fact that VIFF doesn’t actually do anything in game technically and you’ll see just how badly they have been treated lol.

3 Likes
154

Some would. Some wouldn’t. But would rather have 352 CMs at 12.3 in the F3 than 32 at 12.0.

And there are yet more buffs available for the F3 from FM buffs to Phimat. Let alone things like 9Ms if needed

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The Tornado basically needs all these buffs, the unfortunate reality of the tornado is that it will never be that good of an air to air platform. Apparently its engines became anemic at medium to high alts as well.