how doesnt it though
also you still havent listed a better 8.3 medium tank
He will, once Gaijin actually adds a medium at 8.3 that’s better.
Both of these vehicles can be significantly raised in BR if respective old nerfs to HEAT, HESH, and APDS get lifted.
HEAT postpen spall was made horrifically inconsistent in 1.67 to protect the then-new IS-6 from swarms of M46s using the then-recently-historically-corrected M348 shell to slaughter them en masse.
HESH postpen was made inconsistent and now nonexistent in 1.71 once people switched from HEAT to HESH to kill the IS-6, and it was found that the Centurion Mk10 and Vickers Mk1 were really good at it (then also 7.0 like the IS-6 was).
APDS also was quite strong back then, which had postpen comparable to solid APCBC, and consistently too.
If you undo those old bullshit nerfs, the T58 will immediately become 9.0 worthy, possibly higher still.
As for the Turm 3, those same rebuffs will certainly help, but in addition those, why not make its coaxial gun a 50/50 mix of APHE and APDS? Easy 9.0+ material there using assets the game already has. Note: I am just as much in favor of enhancing ammo selection on other nations’ 20-30mm coaxial guns like those on the French which are stuck using useless HVAP despite the APDS already existing ingame.
T58 + HESH is a broken combination.
APDS is still quite strong, especially L7 one.
Only because of overpressure - when test-driving it and intentionally aiming at places where overpressure couldn’t be a factor, the HESH was just as weak as every other HESH.
Everything prior to L7 is very much not. Look at the Conqueror. Or the Bulldogs/T92/17-pdr/20-pdr. Utterly destroyed via “Shell Shattered” after years of repeated postpen nerfs.
Germany has an argentinian tank without stabilizer at 8.7 and 4.0secs reload. why couldn’t the T58 go to 8.7/9.0 if it’s basically the game but better.
i mean yeah, it has gen 2 thermals at 8.7 and laser rangefinder, but thermals aren’t extremely necessary at that BR and LRF is only useful for long range maps with a lot of space like deserts.
So it is still an issue.
But Turm III is using L7 one.
It’s actually laughable that T58 isn’t at 9.0 yet after all these months of dominance.
yup, i have seen Spookston pulverizing T-72s and T-64s with the HESH at 9.3.
- I didn’t say anywhere that T58 can’t go up
- The tank you’re referencing has a DART (APFSDS) in addition to gen TWO thermals (most tanks at this BR don’t even get gen1)
- Scouting
- Scout UAV
- Is faster than the T58
- is smaller than the T58
And with all this, it still struggles quite a bit because unstabilized tanks are unstabilized tanks and past 8.3 not having a stabilizer is quite crippling.
Yes it is, but where I disagree with a lot of people is that I vehemently oppose nerfing HESH any further.
Instead, I’d undo the old nerf from 1.69 to all HESH and then punt the T58 up to 9.0 with the 279, maybe higher even if the 1.67 HEAT nerf also got repealed.
Correct, but all APDS is rather iffy at times. All HEAT (FS or not) is a complete gamble between one-tapping and doing fuck all. HESH currently isn’t worth using when it should annihilate anything lacking composite armor.
It’s arguably 9.0 material as is.
So then assuming a restorative HESH postpen buff for the non-overpressure part of the shell’s damage, where then would you put it? I had assumed 9.0 was sufficient with a HESH rebuff like was done with the 279, as the T58 has better RoF but worse mobility and also armor than that thing.
the Object 279 is probably easier to kill than the T58 since it has less armor and anything with an APDS or HEAT can pen the front (even tanks from the same BR as the 279).
btw and just as an idea that is probably a very bad one, Gaijin could give the T58 a stabilizer so it’s 9.0/9.3 material, but imo that would be a VERY bad idea since 2.6secs + stabilized is a deadly combo.
imma just drop the idea here and let yall give ur opinion about it, since as i know, T58 is 50:50 fake so it could get buffed.
A bit higher than without it, obviously.
Nah, this thing is way too good to get just a single BR step increase.
idk what u think about this website, but i read all the information it provided and the T58 “technically and imo” never existed, just 2 turrets that got discarded after some years since the doctrine of “heavily armored tank” changed to MBTs before the production line could start with the tank.
plus, it was just a modified M103’s hull with a massive turret over it which, in reality, derivated to many problems that needed solutions: the turret was massive so the hull needed to be a bit bigger, the turret bustle collided with the mufflers of the engine, it was required a new travel lock to accommodate the bigger cannon, etc.
for me the fact that they only built 2 turrets for the tank is enough to say it’s fake just like germans only built the E-100’s hull and it’s called a “paper tank”.
Well it has 400mm pen HEAT, which if rebuffed to 1.67 postpen levels would be quite good already. Pair that with 1.69-grade HESH postpen, modern overpressure from HESH that big, optionally also overpressuring APCBC-HE, and maybe in the future adding the T30’s M107 HE to it, I could see it going from 9.3-10.0 depending on if it was given a stabilizer, as @Flanker_Thunder posted about how it’s basically a fake tank (so snail could put whatever they want in it).
I likewise feel the same about rebuffing any and all other nerfed munition types, because nerfs at the end of the day help no one. They should only be an option of absolute last resort when adding new counters to the problem vehicle or enhancing an existing counter has been tried and failed miserably. Doesn’t matter whether we’re talking big HE, HEAT, HESH, APCR, APDS (both early & late), all aircraft weaponry, etc.
At least the Turm 3 is far less debatable - it’s already insanely high fire rate, has the Falcon’s gun as a coax which no other tank has, and I’d wager with rollback of old nerfs that long predate it, as well as giving the coax a 50/50 APDS/APHE mixed belt, that thing could easily be 9.3 if not 9.7, where only the lack of thermal vision would be an issue. And Snail could give the thing thermals if they wanted because it was a funny one-off prototype.
That doesn’t really happen.
T58 isn’t a fake or paper, it’s a prototype that existed in steel, was tested and subsequently scrapped when heavy tanks were deemed obsolete. There literally is a picture of the fully assembled vehicle. It completed tests (how else would anyone know about the issue with the mufflers), it was evaluated and we have concrete documents proving this.
But don’t compare it to E-100 that literally didn’t make it fully off the drawing board. Or the Ho-Ri that was literally just fabricated from IJA documents describing the requirements for the tank.
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