IR Manpads/AAM Seeker Discussion

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/vmW670pr5HsO

I am opening a mega thread with Missile seeker discussion:

Sources on the MANPADS lock on ranges:

Federation of American Scientists:

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/land/docs/ch2.pdf (See Section 2-18; pg.18)

US Defense Technical Information Center:

This PDF is about effective command and control for the LAV-AD and datalink between radar and launch vehicle for effective aiming

“Stinger–POST was equipped with a dual wave length detector assembly
made in a stack—one detector that operated at the mid-infrared made of InSb and another
detector that operated at the near ultraviolet (UV) made of cadmium sulphide. The IR
detector was for sensing the hot exhaust gases from the aircraft engines; the UV detector
allowed the Stinger to track radiation emitted by the aircraft skin. This improved
Stinger’s all-aspect engagement capability—the missile was no longer as dependent on
picking up engine heat, which would always be strongest at the rear of an aircraft.
Stinger–POST seeker heads were also designed to be modularly fitted to Stinger Basic
airframes.”
https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Portals/68/Documents/DefenseTechnologyPapers/DTP-033.pdf

The exact lock on range against a helicopter is up to debate, but once again without detailed missile launch parameter against a known threat, it will be difficult to adjust the lock on range. Additionally dual UV and IR seeker does not make stinger immune to flare, resistance == immune.

If you can dig up Stinger’s lock on range diagram against Mi–24 for example, then I can forward the report.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA463420.pdf - Possibly Pg.21, 22
https://media.defense.gov/2019/Apr/11/2002115503/-1/-1/0/37MANPADS.PDF Pg.13 (Pg31 of the PDF)

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA207283.pdf (As Linked Test Was noted in 1988 Helicopters were simulated with models and placed at a fixed distance to represent 3km. Limitation being Positive ID can only be achieved at that range)

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA340188.pdf - Pg 14+ (In Short " Doctrine for use of SHORAD weapons require positive IFF before lock / fire can be achieved. It is not a limitation of the weapon but of the need to keep Fratricide down.")

As for maximum lock range we should take the cross section comparison of max range being
“The Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures (LAIRCM) Program Office at Wright Patterson AFB (OH) asserted that if a helicopter (AH-64) has an IR signature of 1, a turboprop transport (C-130) would be 10, a tactical fighter (F-16) would be 35, and a large jet transport (C-17) would be 100. The IR output of a jammer or flare is often specified as a multiple of the aircraft signature and is usually referred to as the Jammer-to-Signature (J/S) or Flare-to-Signature (F/S) Ratio, as appropriate. Sources in the BAE SYSTEMS’ Jam Lab said extensive testing of various MANPADS threats have defined minimum J/S and F/S levels for IRCM to be effective more than 80 percent of the time, which is considered a reasonable threshold for threat exposure.” -Facing the Shoulder-Fired Threat. - Free Online Library

It might just come down to the thermal /cross sectional signatures on Heli’s to be represented too low comparatively to fixed wing aircraft either in the math ran or fixed values placed during inception.

Maybe this helps but way above my head in terms of math…

The MIM-72G is known to have successfully hit a helicopter target at 8km range. The specifics of this test are as of yet unknown but both International Defense Review and “Anti Aircraft Missile Systems” corroborate this test on the MIM-72G, which is known to use a similar IR/UV RSS Seeker as the Stinger POST and all following models

“Anti Aircraft Missile Systems”

“International Defense Review” Vol 24

Hi, After comprehensive review of the documents presented in the report, there isn’t sufficient evidence to suggest that LAV-AD can use IRST lock to cue missiles. There is sufficient evidence that ground based radar installations can provide targeting information so the gunner knows where to aim, but that does not equal to IRST seeker slaving.

However, there are some issue that might be in game.

  1. Multiple sources suggest that the Stinger can lock on the Mi-8/24 at 3km under any aspect.
    Longer lock on ranges might be possible.

  2. radiation pattern in game for helicopters are potentially wrong. For a helicopter, the maximum thermal temperature is 90 degrees away from the front.

9 Likes

https://nisat.prio.org/misc/download.ashx?file=24134

BTW, are you guys sure that the stinger uses contact fuse and not a delayed fuse ?

Model Changes if it helps

Are you sure?

Spoiler



3,45 KM lock on with Stingers by Ozelot.

Spoiler



Exactly 3 KM.

i noticed that on winter maps the lock range is lower and on desert maps lock range is higher

Both screenshots are from desert maps where lock range is higher

Well yeah weather conditions affect lock range and ballistics.
3-4KM probably come from their usage in Afganistan.

Just try’d playing the Chaparral… 3.5km all aspect lock? oohh really!!? Can’t even lock an alouette on a clear day at 2.1km… Yeh i think there’s a problem with helicopter heat signatures when in the same match i can lock an SU25 at 3.5km flying towards me. This needs fixing ASAP, it’s ridiculous to have 10.0 + spaa being out ranged by atgms constantly… Meanwhile the strela at 9.3 with contrast lock… BALANCED

2 Likes