My personal skill is low. I’m literally only good in plane on plane combat. I have super limited experience with bombs and strafing people. I can’t use gunners. But killing tonks using plane is super easy while this epic SPAA winning duels vs F4U-1 person is basically a god among men.
1 Like
do you have a single reason why tank only is foolish?
and also do you propose that air RB should be completely removed?
1 Like
The single reason is people being able to have fun and we cannot have that
1 Like
It is kinda foolish mentioning Tank Only in a dicuss about air-ground balance, it does not help change the imbalance between air and ground. You just hide the problem and say everything is fine while actually it’s not.
IMO it’s nothing different from saying “Then go play Planes/Tanks” to players who are complaining about the imbalance in Naval Battles.
2 Likes
I believe that the reason why the CAS/Ground relationship doesn’t work in this game is because the setup of the modes does not fundamentally allow for the proper balancing factors that exist in the real battlespace to exist in the game. Due to the fact that some of these key limiting factors are not present, it allows for one tech or the other to be dominant in a way that it is simply not IRL. The upcoming example will apply best to top tier, but can work in modified form in all eras where SAM systems exist.
I would like to also acknowledge that Ground is a combined arms mode. Aircraft are not going to be removed, but their implementation can be massively improved upon. All points made in this post assume all systems are player controlled.
1. AA Range/Map Size
- Long-range SAMS are needed
- Long-range SAMS are one of the only truly effective means of stopping aircraft from targeting ground troops
- LR SAMS keep aircraft too far away from the front line to have any effect on it
- Maps are too small for Long-range SAMS to be added.
- If LR SAMS existed in the game as it is today, aircraft would be unable to do anything as they exist perpetually inside the LR SAM’s lethal range.
- Maps need to be made larger so that CAS aircraft can have an area outside the SAMs’ range to spawn and to stage counterplay.
- Aircraft need longer-range weaponry to deal with longer-range SAMS
- Weaponry should not be so potent as to allow the aircraft to outrange the SAM
- Both parties should have to be at significant risk of dying to be able to secure a kill on the other.
- Balance between Aircraft and SAM power should be maintained
- Advantages and disadvantages to each system
- SAM Advantages
- Ground-based means missiles are faster and longer range than any aircraft-carried missile. SAM can shoot first.
- Constantly scanning radar means great Situational Awareness for SAM player. Radar automatically picks out targets.
- SAM Disadvantages
- Not mobile, once aircraft finds the SAM site, it can exit SAM range and plan its attack based on a known location.
- Constantly scanning radar means SAM’s position is broadcast at all times, if SAM player turns off radar he is essentially blind and unable to defend against any attack.
- Aircraft advantages
- Air-based means extremely mobile. Aircraft can change direction and fly low/pop up at will. SAM player must defend an area rather than attack a point.
- Mobility means aircraft can enter and exit SAM Weapon Employment Zone at will, gives more opportunity to plan attack and actively manage risk.
- Aircraft disadvantages
- Air-based means limited range/amount of weapon systems. Aircraft can only suspend limited amounts of missiles that can travel shorter distances than ground-based SAMS.
- Limited amount means susceptible to interception by SAM system.
- Core principles: Counterplay but not dominance, risk for reward, must defeat the SAM to attack ground troops.
- Summary: Longer-range sams, larger maps, and counter-sam systems for aircraft should all be added simultaneously, aircraft must first break through long range SAM before they can attack ground troops. Allows time for ground battle to progress before aircraft become involved. Also allows opportunity for a good SAM player to deny aircraft involvement altogether.
- Rewards pilot skill with opportunity to attack ground targets for rewards/to influence a win
Rewards SAM player skill with opportunity to kill aircraft for rewards/to deny air support ability to influence a loss
- Role of Combat Air Patrols/Fighter Sweeps
- Fighter aircraft also play a major role
- Defensively - deny SEAD aircraft the opportunity to attack SAM system in the first place, or severely hamper their ability to do so
- Offensively - protect SEAD aircraft from enemy fighters, ensure their ability to effectively combat SAM system
- Fighter aircraft can fill the gaps of a surface-based SAM’s defense sphere, serve as a backup incase SAM goes down.
- Addition of datalink and AI AEW/C aircraft, enhances aircraft SA and can additionally help SAM player, secondary objective to help influence the air battle.
- Changes to Gamemode Setup
- Bigger lobbies with new allocations (30v30)
- New allocations meant to stop players flocking away from playing tanks.
- Queue for “Combined Arms”
- Ranked choice of submode, or just check/uncheck.
(Lobby player counts are per side)
-
- 16x Ground player - unchanged, only group that can spawn helicopters/heavy CAS aircraft with AT munitions. Can spawn tanks to affect ground battle and SHORAD to help the air.
- Shorad can relieve LR SAM player from distractions by dealing with helicopter players. Can additionally serve as a backup incase LR SAM goes down.
- Spawnpoint system to get CAS, can flexibly spawn as SEAD aircraft/fighter aircraft but is meant to be the ground battle winner.
-
- 2x LR SAM player
- Spawns at the beginning of the match in a long range SAM system, in a place separate from the battlefield, responsible for the defense of the airspace around the ground battle.
- Seperation from the ground battle is realistic, means tanks cannot destroy LR SAM system, and means aircraft must truly search for SAMs.
- No respawn, LR SAM is extremely potent, so once he dies it is considered mission accomplished for SEAD.
-
- 6x SEAD player
- Spawns at airfield, tasked with breaking the enemy LR SAM. Gets 3 respawns, similar to sim battles, does not have to pay SP but cannot take AT munitions.
- Gets a mission accomplished notification and leaves game once enemy LR SAM is dead, SEAD players get lump-sum reward once enemy SAM system is destroyed.
- Could also get small reward for SAM missile evasions, similar to “munition intercepted” rewards.
- Meant to compensate for relative lack of rewards otherwise.
-
- 6x CAP player
- Spawns at airfield, tasked both with defending friendly SEAD aircraft on their attack and assisting friendly LR SAM in defense of the airspace. Gets 3 respawns and can only take A-A munitions.
-
I believe that the reason why the CAS/Ground relationship doesn’t work in this game is because the setup of the modes does not fundamentally allow for the proper balancing factors that exist in the real battlespace to exist in the game. Due to the fact that some of these key limiting factors are not present, it allows for one tech or the other to be dominant in a way that it is simply not IRL. The upcoming example will apply best to top tier, but can work in modified form in all eras where SAM systems exist.
I would like to also acknowledge that Ground is a combined arms mode. Aircraft are not going to be removed, but their implementation can be massively improved upon. All points made in this post assume all systems are player controlled.
1. AA Range/Map Size
- Long-range SAMS are needed
- Long-range SAMS are one of the only truly effective means of stopping aircraft from targeting ground troops
- LR SAMS keep aircraft too far away from the front line to have any effect on it
- Maps are too small for Long-range SAMS to be added.
- If LR SAMS existed in the game as it is today, aircraft would be unable to do anything as they exist perpetually inside the LR SAM’s lethal range.
- Maps need to be made larger so that CAS aircraft can have an area outside the SAMs’ range to spawn and to stage counterplay.
- Aircraft need longer-range weaponry to deal with longer-range SAMS
- Weaponry should not be so potent as to allow the aircraft to outrange the SAM
- Both parties should have to be at significant risk of dying to be able to secure a kill on the other.
- Balance between Aircraft and SAM power should be maintained
- Advantages and disadvantages to each system
- SAM Advantages
- Ground-based means missiles are faster and longer range than any aircraft-carried missile. SAM can shoot first.
- Constantly scanning radar means great Situational Awareness for SAM player. Radar automatically picks out targets.
- SAM Disadvantages
- Not mobile, once aircraft finds the SAM site, it can exit SAM range and plan its attack based on a known location.
- Constantly scanning radar means SAM’s position is broadcast at all times, if SAM player turns off radar he is essentially blind and unable to defend against any attack.
- Aircraft advantages
- Air-based means extremely mobile. Aircraft can change direction and fly low/pop up at will. SAM player must defend an area rather than attack a point.
- Mobility means aircraft can enter and exit SAM Weapon Employment Zone at will, gives more opportunity to plan attack and actively manage risk.
- Aircraft disadvantages
- Air-based means limited range/amount of weapon systems. Aircraft can only suspend limited amounts of missiles that can travel shorter distances than ground-based SAMS.
- Limited amount means susceptible to interception by SAM system.
- Core principles: Counterplay but not dominance, risk for reward, must defeat the SAM to attack ground troops.
- Summary: Longer-range sams, larger maps, and counter-sam systems for aircraft should all be added simultaneously, aircraft must first break through long range SAM before they can attack ground troops. Allows time for ground battle to progress before aircraft become involved. Also allows opportunity for a good SAM player to deny aircraft involvement altogether.
- Rewards pilot skill with opportunity to attack ground targets for rewards/to influence a win
Rewards SAM player skill with opportunity to kill aircraft for rewards/to deny air support ability to influence a loss
2. Role of Combat Air Patrols/Fighter Sweeps
- Fighter aircraft also play a major role
- Defensively - deny SEAD aircraft the opportunity to attack SAM system in the first place, or severely hamper their ability to do so
- Offensively - protect SEAD aircraft from enemy fighters, ensure their ability to effectively combat SAM system
- Fighter aircraft can fill the gaps of a surface-based SAM’s defense sphere, serve as a backup incase SAM goes down.
- Addition of datalink and AI AEW/C aircraft, enhances aircraft SA and can additionally help SAM player, secondary objective to help influence the air battle.
3. Changes to Gamemode Setup
- Bigger lobbies with new allocations (30v30)
- New allocations meant to stop players flocking away from playing tanks.
- Queue for “Combined Arms”
- Ranked choice of submode, or just check/uncheck.
(Lobby player counts are per side)
-
- 16x Ground player - unchanged, only group that can spawn helicopters/heavy CAS aircraft with AT munitions. Can spawn tanks to affect ground battle and SHORAD to help the air.
- Shorad can relieve LR SAM player from distractions by dealing with helicopter players. Can additionally serve as a backup incase LR SAM goes down.
- Spawnpoint system to get CAS, can flexibly spawn as SEAD aircraft/fighter aircraft but is meant to be the ground battle winner.
-
- 2x LR SAM player
- Spawns at the beginning of the match in a long range SAM system, in a place separate from the battlefield, responsible for the defense of the airspace around the ground battle.
- Seperation from the ground battle is realistic, means tanks cannot destroy LR SAM system, and means aircraft must truly search for SAMs.
- No respawn, LR SAM is extremely potent, so once he dies it is considered mission accomplished for SEAD.
-
- 6x SEAD player
- Spawns at airfield, tasked with breaking the enemy LR SAM. Gets 3 respawns, similar to sim battles, does not have to pay SP but cannot take AT munitions.
- Gets a mission accomplished notification and leaves game once enemy LR SAM is dead, SEAD players get lump-sum reward once enemy SAM system is destroyed.
- Could also get small reward for SAM missile evasions, similar to “munition intercepted” rewards.
- Meant to compensate for relative lack of rewards otherwise.
-
- 6x CAP player
- Spawns at airfield, tasked both with defending friendly SEAD aircraft on their attack and assisting friendly LR SAM in defense of the airspace. Gets 3 respawns and can only take A-A munitions.
-
But why?
- Allows for much needed variety in air gameplay
- Defeating human controlled LR SAM will be a true challenge for SEAD aircraft/vice versa for SAM player
- Allows fighter pilots to have a gamemode where playing objectives and using strategy actually matters (TT ARB right now is TDM moshpit slop)
- New learning curve for SEAD pilots to counter SAM systems and vice versa for SAM player
- Allows some time for ground battle to normally progress
- Update to ground objectives should come alongside these proposed changes to make ground battle longer/more objective based, but the specifics of that are outside my expertise.
- Longer ground battle allows SEAD battle to play out.
- Allows for much needed variety in air gameplay
In conclusion, the air component of GRB should be massively reworked, this would introduce a much neede new gamemode for pilots in the form of the airspace battle for SEAD/Fighter pilots and SAMmers(?) and give tank players some room to breathe and accomplish objectives before aircraft show up.
- Allows for much needed variety in air gameplay
- Defeating human controlled LR SAM will be a true challenge for SEAD aircraft/vice versa for SAM player
- Allows fighter pilots to have a gamemode where playing objectives and using strategy actually matters (TT ARB right now is TDM moshpit slop)
- New learning curve for SEAD pilots to counter SAM systems and vice versa for SAM player
- Allows some time for ground battle to normally progress
- Update to ground objectives should come alongside these proposed changes to make ground battle longer/more objective based, but the specifics of that are outside my expertise.
- Longer ground battle allows SEAD battle to play out.
In conclusion, the air component of GRB should be massively reworked, this would introduce a much neede new gamemode for pilots in the form of the airspace battle for SEAD/Fighter pilots and SAMmers(?) and give tank players some room to breathe and accomplish objectives before aircraft show up.
5 Likes
i agree. but CAS players are clearly too vital for gaijins wallet, so they never dared to balance any aircraft.
but regardless of actual CAS balance, there should have always been a ground-only gamemode
2 Likes
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
1 Like
CAS players just a lie;
People who enjoy the Ground realistic will collect many vehicle ;For example a top team usually have 3mbt 1heli 1jetcas 1cas 1sam and other light vehicle .Collecting such a team need a long time and many pay
But after CAS takes charge of the game ,[ Player only one tank and one cas are needed ],rather than a need all vehicle team
I hope Gaijin saw this word
1 Like
yea, i am living a rage induced fever dream because i want to play ground vehicles without getting killed by air vehicles.
unfathomable concept, i should be burned like a witch for such an out of line idea
(nobody tell this guy about “air RB”, he will get a heart attack)
4 Likes
spawning a light tank and then getting 6 kills from 20km away with CAS 1 minutes into the match is definitely good gameplay
1 Like
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
If your interest is to play a mud mover. Something that is unlikely to survive against a fighter. Then “just play ARB” isnt really… possible and what gameplay is on offer, is basically just “bomb this static target”
Air Sim offers some better oppotunities for CAS gameplay, but it isnt a huge amount better either and is far from dynamic gameplay. And of course, not all like the limitatons imposed by Sim. An RB EC gamemode is apparently in the works, but could be a while
If your interest is to play a heli… Then you are completely screwed because its not even worth mentioning Heli PvE.
So… “just play ARB” fails to accept that ARB is basically only designed for fighters. Aircraft that (with the exception of the top tier multiroles) should not be classed as “CAS” in GRB.
1 Like
Honestly I don’t find top tier cas that bad, I only get LGBed or KH-38ed once in a while.
Mid tier cas though is HORRIBLE, I can barely use my T-34-85 or whatever without half the lobby being aircraft.
Anyway my fix would be keep GRB the exact same, just limit aircraft to 3-4 per team at one time.
Make a new TRB mode (tank realistic battles), a mode just for tanks.
Lastly make a ARB PvE mode, but I think this needs to be done well as current PvE modes suck. For this to work I would expect like at least 6-8 bases, and a very large amount of respawning targets spread out (I find the helicopter PvE sucks due to targets being concentrated and when they respawn take a long time to get to. It just becomes a race for the first person with the best helicopter to just get all the targets)
Also for the ARB PvE mode I would say keep same reward system as normal ARB, because the sim and Heli PvE reward system sucks booty
Also thinking back this PvE mode could have a bombing mechanic for bombing larger cities (actually probably “industrial targets”). They would have a huge health pool or be a huge amount of individual targets. This could be realistic, fun, and prevent people with slower planes having an absolute struggle spading or grinding. Also just image the B-17 custom servers and squadron runs
2 Likes
In a combined arms game? Yeah you’re right, you are!
Defer to the other guy’s post, Morvran, he explains it very well.
3 Likes
ok, then play GRB, while i will play ground-only.
literally nothing is going to change for bomber players.
it literally takes the devs 5 minutes to add a ground-only gamemode.
there is a flip switch to toggle aircraft or helis in custom battles.
doesnt really explain anything.
by the way, i am suggesting that ground-only is added. i never said that the current GRB mode should be removed or changed (apart from CAS balancing)
2 Likes
just remove planes in ground battle…
4 Likes
They aren’t going to do that.
make it same as arcade. you can bring your own planes, but it needs to be reward based. remove plane spawning cheaper through scouting. that just allows people to be dumb team mates, roam around for a bit. scout a few targets, and then get themselves killed just so they can spawn a plane. we should remove that.
if you get 2 or 3 ground kills, you can spawn in a plane of your choosing.
1 Like
only a solution that works for all players is going to work.
planes in ground battles can be a fun aspect, but they should add a ground-only gamemode so that you can choose what you play against
4 Likes
DITTO! Apparently my post was flagged as ADVERTISING SPAM.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣