This is a skill issue, but even after playing through most of the props of the US tree around ~2-3 years ago through AAB, playing some prop ARB after that, and more recently playing prop ARB again, I still don’t understand how to do anything other than catching people by surprise.
The plane I’ve been playing mostly for the past month has been the P-47D-28, and every match I sideclimb to ~4.5km and then continue climbing back to where everyone else is (usually arriving at ~6-7km). My K/D in it is around 1.5, so I’m not terrible or anything, but it doesn’t feel like I’m ever really in a state of advantage when trying to BnZ.
The engagements then just either take the form of one of the following the vast majority of the time:
There are actually a couple people at altitude, I try to engage but half the time it just ends up being a headon and the other half I catch them off guard and maybe get a kill depending on my aim.
No one is at altitude and try to get down to an altitude where I know I won’t overspeed during a dive (~4.5-5km), but after doing a dive I usually miss the pass or don’t hit anything vital and now there is an enemy or enemies tailing me.
The things I am doing:
I am using MEC for all of my props now, and my settings are based on MOBB’s thread.
I am side climbing.
I am climbing at the optimal rate without losing speed (~21.5 m/s spaded).
When I extend I am doing so at a shallow angle (usually ~10 m/s if I’m pulling away).
I do try to get people to come up to altitude if I can (i.e. trying to get people to where they don’t have the level of control I do).
I do dive away if necessary.
I do use WTRTI.
Things I have done:
I’ve watched all of Defyn’s tutorial videos on BnZ and energy fighting (and I just watch his stuff in general in passing).
I’ve watched several other content creator’s guides to BnZ (Jengar, Squishthunder, Joob, hav3nWT, CatWerfer, etc.).
I’ve looked at the few BnZ threads that I can find on the forums.
Advice that I find to (usually) not work:
Dive on props that can’t dive fast - For some reason I find doing this very inconsistent. I’m not sure why but I’ll be diving at 650-750 km/h TAS and I’ll still be getting shot by Yaks or whatever Japanese plane.
Fighting mainly at altitude - When I can do this/get people to do this, it seemingly just becomes me getting chased by planes that aren’t really getting left behind, where they never lack enough energy for me to do anything other than force headons (even at 7.5km).
If I am extending, sometimes the enemy will just turn their guns on me and either hit me or I have to dodge because I can see that a bullet would hit me. The latter results in me losing energy and therefore my ability to get back to altitude.
To get to the point, I wanted to ask what you actually do to BnZ? How do you deal with someone beyond the first pass? How do you deal with having too much altitude? How do you do anything other than headons (or force the enemy into anything other than headons), even at altitude? How do you get enemies to get close to stalling where you can actually reverse?
Boom and zoom usually applies to fast aircraft that can easily outmatch others in maximum speed and acceleration.
Usually boom and zoom is better applied to aircraft that have poor dogfighting capabilities (e.g., strike aircrafts and bombers) so it will depends on your plane.
The P-47D-28 is better in head-on or simply dogfighting, you’re not going anywhere with the few 10.1m/s of climbing rate it offers when planes like F8F-1 can outspeed you in this aspect with 19.5m/s of climbing rate.
It’s really not, though. It’s only got .50 cals and it can’t turn.
The P-47D-28’s best climb rate is somewhere around 21.5 m/s, but the F8F-1 climbs faster than that still.
That’s already what I do.
To add to the original post, I had a match earlier today where I climbed to 9.5km with a Ki-84 on my tail and he never lost enough energy for me to safely reverse. Are you just screwed if you miss your one pass and now have an enemy on your tail?
P47 isnt great, you want to play stuff like early BR fw190 or “”“”““strike””'“” variants of bnz planes that get an airspawn for no good reason, or at least something with competitive climb rate for the BR its at.
BnZ in general just not an ideal playstyle for how ARB matches are played and how short the matches tend to be.
If you are taking headons its because you didnt climb enough and the answer is just climb more and ya its tedious and boring, and you might be outmatched especially in a p47 in that regard running into planes with superior climb and ceiling.
Another reason BnZ isnt great is nametags, everyone gets to keep tabs on you at all times with zero effort and you never have an element of suprise.
Jokes aside: I agree to most of your views from a holistic standpoint.
Regarding the P-47 D-28:
As a power user of the D-28 in the last weeks, i can confirm that it is way harder to make this plane work that the almost identical CHN D-30 and IT D-30.
From my perspective this is mainly a result of the MM nation allocation which grants you in the CHN version usually way larger lobbies (with JP and or USSR with you) and places you in the IT D-30 often vs teams full of US rookies. US teams run somehow rather often in lobbies full of JP & USSR stuff like A7M2s and Yak-3Us - or end up in the old axis vs allies MM with rather small lobbies like 6-8 vs 6-8. If you have no Spitfire support, you are usually often (more or less) the only guy without a base bombing payload.
I completely disagree that the D-28 can’t turn. It is no problem to beat 109s (G/K), 190s and stuff like La-7s in a turn fight on equal energy states.
What is really annoying me is the missing air brake of the D-28. I use mainly planes with air brake as i love BnP (Boom and Park) - diving on enemies and park my planes at their six - close enough to keep them in gun range, but with enough distance that their evasive actions have zero effect. Even admitting that the P-47 is not a Zero - the turn is good enough to stay behind most planes and use 3.400 rounds of Freedom.
Based on my experiences with P-47s the only scenario where BnZ actually works (mostly) pretty well is on the lange Pacific maps - even in the 3.7 D-22/23 you are untouchable (including full uptiers) and the much higher contrail alt of ~ 6.5 km allows you to get to alt undetected.
Depending on your server choice and daytime & and your BR you might run into squadded sweatlords in Ki-44s, J2Ms, A7M2s or Ki-84s. As u are usually alone in those matches after 6-8 minutes and as it is (almost) impossible to beat a coordinated squad as a solo player - i recommend to use an order like anti-mech to block their blind hunt/avenger orders until you are above 7-8 km; then you are safe.
Regarding BnZ in general:
It takes 2 to tango - one has to stop climbing, whilst the other has to continue. So the challenge is mainly to get in a position with sufficient enough altitude to perform a BnZ attack - on certain maps (too small or too low contrail alt) it is almost impossible to get a rather safe alt advantage of 1.5 to 2 km.
So without a sufficient alt advantage there is no BnZ - and yes you are right in a lot of matches somebody in the other team had the same idea and you neutralise each other.
I fully agree to the difficulties of hitting rather agile objects without real surprise effects - especially if you use like me a HOTAS instead of MnK.
If we can agree that the ultimate goal of BnZ is to attack an enemy unaware of your presence or being too slow to dodge your incoming attack this is simply not working with markers. The smarter enemies either dive out to their team mates or keep their planes in their maneuverability sweet spot and are able to dodge the whole day.
If you have ever tried to kill a very good pilot in a 5.7 Yak-3 VK-107 with a 6.7 262 A-2a or a 4.7 P-47 D-28 you might agree that your primary concern (besides scoring hits) is to maintain your energy advantage - if you over-commit you lose it in the long run and if you are too passive you survive with 0 points.
1. To get to the point, I wanted to ask what you actually do to BnZ?
Sideclimbing and reverse climbing (=behind AF on these tiny frontline maps).
Climbing outside line of sight and away from own bases whilst trying to identify their best player(s) and their best plane(s).
Conceal contrails behind cloud cover, avoiding having the sun in back as they even highlight your contrail.
I don’t stop climbing until i either spotted all enemies and identified and outclimbed their best player/plane.
2. How do you deal with someone beyond the first pass?
Depends on general situation - meaning out weighting the energy loss of a second pass vs threat of other enemies (or negative impact on positioning vs them).
Planes like Merlin Spitfires or A6Ms are usually no problem - either they climb further trying to catch you in a long prolonged dive, or they try to catch you even if you are way faster.
So if resetting the fight (back to a BnZ position) takes too long or you are just tired of these guys in rat planes: Ignore them. With a proper flight path planning they stay forever behind you and you try to attack targets in front of you. A short visit of the enemy forward airfield with a Merlin Spit or A6M behind you grants you rather often a kill whilst the guy behind you never get in gun range.
3. How do you deal with having too much altitude?
Same as with my bank account, there is no limit to the top.
The D-28 dives extremely well - If you are experienced enough you can attack with TAS of 860-940 kmph (depending on alt) even if the plane compresses at those speeds - all you have to do is to dive at the right angle and at the “right” point in time - meaning too steep you rip your wings, too flat you cant’t bring guns on target.
To be fair: The 16 plane losses in the D-28 consist of at least 50% pancakes 😂
4. How do you do anything other than headons (or force the enemy into anything other than headons), even at altitude?
Regarding Head-ons:
From my pov you have to distinguish head-ons as attack tactic or as defense tactic like defending vs an enforced head-on.
In other words it depends on your options - it makes no sense to choose a head-on (with a small risk) if you can out-turn or out-energy your opponent.
I am very proud to claim that i don’t perform head-ons (as offensive tactic) in general due to the severe lack of accuracy of my HOTAS vs Mouse aimers. This means that > 99% of my total kills are a result of energy fighting (which includes BnZ) & turn fighting.
The sole exception is vs JP planes if i can attack with very high speed (makes my aim stable) and very high excess speed (to avoid their dodge & loop at your six tactic) as this is usually the only way to engage them - but i would still estimate that my total kill number as a result of head-ons is below 50 in total as my potato aim with a HOTAS is not accurate enough.
The number of plane kills trying to dodge my 8 0.50 cal “fake” head-on and getting caught by bullets fired in their anticipated flight path is way higher - this might be related to my habit to open fire at 2.5 km (with 800 meter convergence) which looks with AP-IT quite impressive.
Imho the higher you get in the P-47 D-28, the easier it is to score kills as most players have zero clue how their planes behave at 7 km+ - their turning circles increase massively thx to the thin air and classic defensive maneuvers like a split -S at high speed and very high alt do not really work as the thinner air accelerate their planes way too fast to pull out the dive fast enough.
If getting chased at high speed & high alt (with enough distance) a “wingover” followed by a slight dive works surprisingly well. The maneuover conserves you energy whilst the slight dive increases your air speed.
Fake a head-on out of a slight climb - most of your enemies get lured into diving at you at very high speed whilst being unable to bring guns on target and compress - follow them immediately as soon as they pass you - if they decide to go up or fly straight you have a firing solution thx to you increased airspeed from your slight dive earlier.
In addition: The contrails above 5.5 km provide a very effective early warning system regarding enemies far beyond maker range
5. How do you get enemies to get close to stalling where you can actually reverse?
Short: Proper assessment of their energy state, knowledge of stall speed and creating the illusion that the would have a firing solution - in other words a energy trap.
Diving on planes with a lower rip speed is tricky. As soon as the enemy player is experienced, he has learned how to dodge horizontally. So if he is able to keep his plane fast enough to maneuver, he might be unimpressed by your attack - especially as planes with lower rip speeds are usually way more maneuverable than a P-47.
Assumptions that the enemy diving behind you might have the same speed than you is often not reliable. If you watch replays of such incidents you will often see that they are actually way slower. Try to convert a speed difference of 50 kmph in m/second - you might be impressed how long does it take to create enough distance to get outside of gun ranges.
This observation depends imho mainly on the quality of your opponents - and depends on your abilities to outclimb them substantially upfront they become aware of your presence.
So if you manage to get 1 vs 1s vs enemies approaching you from below just a few are actual threats. This happens usually long after your non-climbing team dragged all enemies low - or after the first rearming round.
The fact that some players (without having no realistic chance to get in gun range) spend entire matches in climbing for chasing you is very common.
Especially some JP players or Spitfire players love it trying to neutralize you. These are the same guys sticking at you even if you fly a German 162 or 262.
Yesterday i killed a Merlin Spitfire in one pass with 1 hit setting him on fire. The same guy ended the next match with 0 points as he spent 25 minutes trying to catch me.
Iirc we had a similar discussion about extending some time ago.
So my recommendation would be to relax whilst extending - it boils down that in the classic 1 vs all P-47 combat scenario you have usually just one pass and you have to get the kill at all cost.
So the fact that they are able to perform snap shots means just that you missed your often only chance to kill an enemy. Therefore the end result is the always the same: If you have to dodge fire from BnZ targets and it takes ages to reset your position - you give the rest of the enemy team time to climb and the game is even more lost than before.
