Note how defenceless the CAS is btw, as prop, he only has to move a bit once in a while and get some altitude and the CAS can’t do anything.
Even with a perfect aimbot you’d struggle to hit a plane with low tier CAS, let alone trying to predict lead and bullet drop. The CAS has 5 business days to react, and any mouse movement means that your perfectly aimed shot misses.
Think about it, if you are getting chased down in a prop by another prop, you just need to hit elevator/rudder when the enemy shoot to dodge. Now apply this situation where you have triple the separation and insane tangential velocity.
As an SPAA (below 7.0) your only hope to shoot down CAS is to wait in the middle of the map (spot in which you’ll be killed by enemy tanks btw) track a plane passing by and shoot just after he drop his bomb and fly straight.
And even then, If said player is makes evasive maneuvers just in case, you miss.
As an SPAA, you can’t protect your teammates from CAS, you can’t protect yourself from SPAA, and only a few can protect themselves from enemy tanks.
Meanwhile CAS can protect themselves against enemy CAS, against enemy tanks and against enemy SPAA, and are easy to spawn in, use, get kills and avoid getting killed, all of this while at any point they can repair ALL damage. In a tank, you can only replace 1 crew member, and this is on a capture point where a lot of enemy will try to get you, not to mention CAS lol.
And with how close the airfield are, it’s fast and easy to land, repair+re-arm and in less than 3 minutes you are back into the game.
This argument that CAS are in any way balanced against SPAA is ridiculous.
Absurd, we balance around vehicle performance. Balancing with the average player is exactly how the p47 was given an air spawn back in the day and how it was impossible to fight against (tho i’m getting of course).
To balance, ones must look at the strength and weakness of every vehicle and try to match them as much as possible. Player skill can make a horrible vehicle looks excellent or a absurdly OP vehicle look useless.
The best player’s opinions on said vehicles is only supposed to provide information about said “strength and weakness” and how they can synergies.
Especially in ground RB, knowledge on the maps and armor layout of vehicles makes more differences than the vehicles performance themselves. It’s why good player tend to favor fast vehicle with good gun.
And if we look said relative performance off CAS vs SPAA, the only moment spaa has the upper hand is when radar spaa with high velocity high rate of fire face early jets with dumb ordinance. And even then, the spaa can only protect themselve, as the CAS can simply go fly somewhere else.
So tldr:
CAS is either straight up better than SPAA or at least intouchable when played correctly. It can target every type of vehicle it will face on the battlefield while being safe from retaliation. It’s easy to spawn with minimal engagement from the player. It can repair and rearm at any point and be completely safe when doing so. And gets excellent reward from doing so, both soft reward: helping wining the game, and hard reward: getting kills,RP,SL.
Mostly a joke btw, but technically, CAS can even capture zone as you can land, taxi, and if you have some luck, take off. Extremely risky and unpractical, so I won’t use this as an argument.
Meanwhile SPAA can only hope to ambush an unsuspecting CAS. Is mostly defenseless against tanks (except a few). Has minimal impact, because CAS can get kills before the SPAA even has a chance to kill it. And, most importantly imo. The reward from playing SPAA is hilariously bad.
And realistically, it’s not something that can easily be solved.
Should SPAA become laser of death that obliterate any plane it vaguely looks at?
As mainly a tank player I would like it, but’s it’s clearly not the correct solution. Because 1, some unlucky souls has to spawn in said spaa to clear the sky, and in GRB spaa is arguably the most boring gameplay option you have.And 2, would make CAS a gamble of “is a spaa looking at me right now?”
Double/triple the spaa cost?
Maybe, I feels its the easiest and best way to solve this currently.
CAS is a extremely potent role that can single-handedly win a game. Getting to fly a plane should require you to perform well in ground first. Not just capture a point and get a random kill.
It makes it much less likely to be repeatedly killed by cas early in the game before you can even do some tanks vs tanks.
It gives SPAA a real impact, as making the enemy team lose ~1200SP can easily remove a player from the enemy team.
It makes revenge kill in CAS a problem less common, players will much less often waste their hardly obtained CAS plane to get a singular kill
Another solution I’ve also heard way to put spaa player on another part of the map. And while it would solve the problem of tanks vs SPAA, CAS would still be free to attack tanks while easily ignoring the spaa side.
Maybe other people in this thread are right and you are a troll.
The “best players” can spin the narrative that any vehicle is OP.
This is exactly why I said “strength and weakness and how they can synergies”. Good player can first: Identify what is important in this game, like acceleration, top speed, armor, gun, turret traverse speed, ect.
They can provide subjective experience about the weight of each of those and how they can combine.
Saying “I got X KD, WR, or whatever” will never be a acceptable argument for balancing. Tho gaijin disagree and keep balancing with winrate from their own data, so whatever.
SPAA is pretty much untouchable when played correctly, so I’m not quite sure what your point is.
Please explain to the me, the poor lamb, how your spaa is untouchable. You can choose any SPAA any BR. The very fact that CAS can choose when, where and how to attack makes it already win the engagement.
CAS can be untouchable. Thanks to Airfield AA. SPAA will always be vulnerable to planes, unless they find a good enough hard cover and most building can be destroyed with bombs. I can think of the tunnel in Volokolamsk (not sure it’s this one tho) in which you are completely safe tho it’s a cap point so good luck staying alive here. But now the guy who was rushing for the enemy spawn gets a free kill on you. Amazing no?
The main problem of SPAA vs CAS matchup is that the best SPAA can get is a trade, even with radar spaa you can just fly high, dodge until you are above, and dive while dodging.
I’m not sure I mentioned it but the only thing that can directly counter CAS is CAP. But 2 problem:
The size of the maps makes it that unless spawncamping, CAS will always get a kill before CAP can destroy it. And I tried it in the He-162 and Me-262 at 6.7, despite being jets, you just don’t have the speed to intercept CAS diving from 2k on the battlefield only 5km away. They only reliable way is to circle the enemy spawn point and dive on them because they can pick up speed, Something I find quite scummy.
A lot of CAS plane are good fighters too, like the F4U-4B, excellent fighter at 5.7 while having a perfect bomb load for CAS role, which can let them fight long enough for a friendly CAS to take care of you.
Something that could be done is reducing the spawn-point for CAP, like spitfire, bf109, ect while making them unable to damage ground target. But at this point why not play ARB?
Literally all you needa do is not stand out in the open exactly where you spawn, and pick your targets with some amount of brainpower.
If you want a more detailed explanation, heres three principles I generally follow.
Don’t let them know you’re there until it’s too late. If they do know you’re there, act distracted.
Firing at targets outside your range will do nothing but alert the enemy to you’re presence. Instead, let me get comfortable. Let me think they’re clear to engage ground targets with no resistance. The easiest plane to shoot down is one on a strafing or bombing run cause they’re flying a predictable flight path, and usually unable to see tracers even if you do fire at em.
If a plane does know you’re there and is being cautious, act distracted. Shoot some shots in a random direction away from em. Once they try to attack, just turn around and shoot em down (bear in mind turret rotation is really hard to spot from the skies). Most players won’t risk taking an SPAA in a head-on, but if they think you’re distracted, then they will happily take that risk. You will survive most of the time, but even if you trade, a 70sp vehicle for a 600sp+ vehicle is a massive bargain.
Wait for an opportunity to present itself. Being reckless or impatient will just get you killed.
This is similar to the first one, but it’s based on a different principle and is just as important. Don’t shoot at targets outside your range or manuevering. Wait for em to give you an opportune shot. If they’re not giving you an opportune shot, then they’re not attacking your team’s tanks.
Use common sense.
Don’t sit in spawn, rather, stay near your teammates whilst taking cover. If a plane knows you’re there but flies away evasively then the battle isn’t over. He will strike if you let him.
There’s plenty more stupid mistake ppl make depending on the specific situation, for example, hyper focussing one plane cause he killed you, only to let his teammates kill you.
Let’s imagine we are talking about a tank vs tank, or plane vs plane.
If you were to tell me that, if I follow those principle, I might get a kill.
Don’t let them know you’re there until it’s too late. If they do know you’re there, act distracted.
Act distracted/unaware
Be patient
Use common sense
You’d conclude that said matchup is unbalanced right?
And yet, for you, CAS vs SPAA is balanced? See the problem?
Further,
You backed down on this point:
SPAA is pretty much untouchable when played correctly, so I’m not quite sure what your point is.
As you said yourself, you have to act passive and do nothing until the some occasion present itself.
Of course, you avoided the hot topic, If you move outside the spawn, you put yourself at risk of being killed by other tanks. So 3 options:
Stay on the frontlines near your teammates, this directly expose you to confrontation with other tanks (which you loose), this expose you to flankers. And this expose you enemy plane, because as you pointed yourself, A plane can get a trade at worst. Not to mention that being at the front line making sure tanks don’t sneak on you let plane do it and vice-versa. This position can actually works and is the best tho. You get the most chance to protect your teammates, and if you have a good spaa like a ZSU-57-2, a Coelian, a kugel (before nerf). You can fight tanks. But at this point, your really on your tank vs tank capabilities, not spaa.
Stay behind the front line but not near the spawn.
Now your effectiveness has been divided by 5. Sure, you might protect yourself, but if planes are not going for you, you SERVE ZERO PURPOSE. Tho, with radar spaa and missile your effective range is much better that below 7.0. Still you are still at risk from tanks, and now the elephant in the room: Tatic number 1 in ground RB: Go behind enemy line to camp their spawn. Note that this behind enemy line is exactly were you are.
Stay at spawn doing only AA. You are protected from tanks until the game is lost and you get inevitably spawn camped. Effectiveness is zero, risk is average, since CAS love to spawnkill.
Lastly, note how you mentions multiple time: surprice, awareness, ect. Your “golden 3 rules” litteraly relly on the CAS player being bad (which, to be fair to you, is the case 90% of the time). But any, and I mean any, player will any semblance of skill will simply dogde. Take me for example, I just don’t fly straight, I always move a little and I’ve never been killed by SPAA. Not because they couldn’t aim, but because I dodged.
As I said earlier: If you have to rely on the enemy being bad. You are in a bad vehicle, simple as that.
When I play ground RB I can use smoke, .50, artillerly, … to outplay my opponent.
When I play Air RB I can use my speed, roll rate, climb rate, … to outplay my opponent.
When I am in a spaa, I can only get kills on bad player. simple as that. SPAA is not a counter to CAS, QOD.
Let’s quote myself from earlier:
Note how I literally took into account what were about to say, one could believe I actually play this game lol before speaking lol. Even if you manage to kill 4 bad CAS player, they already killed 8 people in your team. They already cleared the good position your map had. Killing them, considering how much the SP earning vs SP cost of CAS doesn’t do much if anything for the game.
Actually let me pull down a anectode: You know that the spawn cost only increase after a death for the same type of vehicle. So there was a player I killed in a M18. He brought a F4U-4B, killed 3 guy, I killed him in a CAP plane. Meanwhile I go chase another CAS. He respawned in a AU-1, kills 4 more guy. I come back and kill him again. He still managed to respawn in a B26 (or another 2 engine bomber, I forgot) and get a kill before I killed him again. And finally he spawned in a sherman.
Think about this. I killed this guy in a plane 3 times, in a CAP plane. and I could not prevent him from getting 3+4+1=8 kills. Not to mention having enough spawn point to spawn in a sherman after all that.
This is why CAS is not balanced and OP. Because the SP reward and the impact you have a on the game is disproportionate to the spawn cost. It’s so cheap to spawn in a plane that dying against an SPAA amounts to nothing. And this is why doubling or tripling the spawn cost is asked, because it would make the CAS much harder to spawn, and make SPAA much more valuable.
Just check your stats btw, while I don’t want to stat shame, when someone tries to give advice he should at least have the talent to back it up somewhat.
Especially when they say something as outrageous as “SPAA is pretty much untouchable when played correctly”.
I don’t expect you have a 10KD, but at a glance, above 50 kills, your best SPAA is the chaparal:
Now sure, you’ve improved or something, I know I did?
Should be easy to do, grind/use a different vehicle and put a good example to show that you are a man off your word. Just 20 air kills and it will appear in the first page.
I’m just surprised that someone that didn’t even try to show a good example with his talent wrote 354 words about how to use SPAA without using said words.
Snarkyness aside, the advice are valid, but I said said at least 5 times. it only works because you fight bad players.
This is SPAA vs AIR units, your SPAAs have negative KD against air units, don’t think anyone needs to hear from someone who can’t shoot down planes and are so bad at doing what SPAAs are designed to do. I’ve seen you continue to get mocked by hundreds of forumers here yet you continue to yap about stuff you don’t know lol
This isn’t tank v tank or plane v plane, this is SPAA v plane.
nice way to ignore the point lol. This is to show how unbalanced the matchup is, something you are weirdly trying to argue against.
Yes, air defenses are passive. That’s literally the whole point.
We are talking about a game where activity is what matters. SPAA being passive litterally reinforce my point. If you are trying to argue that SPAA counter CAS, you fail, because SPAA can never react to CAS, and thus fail at it’s role.
That’s good. It’s a game about war, you should always be balancing risk v reward with your decisions.
Again, this is litteraly what I said, SPAA have extreme risk with none of the reward.
For example, you can take a tank and camp behind a building, low risk, low reward. Or you can take the same tank and flank or cap, high risk high reward. Same for CAS, you can make agressive maneuver, loiter arround the target, or be passive and take fast pass and high speed.
Meanwhile CAS reward is mediocre at best, and risk is always high.
lol, lmao even.
A ~1 KD is bad. straight up. if you had at least 2 it would be decent enough, especially for untouchable SPAA. What you just said was “I suck at the game, but I suck the least in SPAA”.
Why are you adding up the kill from tank? This is just stupid. We are talking about SPAA vs planes.
Someone with a 10KD in a ZSU-57-2 against tanks doesn’t say anything about it’s ability as an SPAA.
Face it, in the spaa role, you have negative kd at best.
Do you really think I would not know why you pulled a screenshot from the forum instead of statshark or war thunder?
Damn, I’m actually impress by the guts of pulling the M19A1 as an example. You have 85 air to 345 death.
For a guy who said that SPAA vs CAS is balanced this is honestly ridicolous, I hope you realize this.
By your own stat you know that SPAA vs CAS is a loosing battle, so much so that you use SPAA as anti-tank for often.
For your own good, I would not continue this discution about your stats, it only harms you.
You know it’s bad when you have to pull some magical factor to explain you poor result.
I’ve seen chemistry lab student use less magical explanation for their titration error lol.
This is the same level as a BI player “removing teamkills” to explain what he has bad stat
Let’s be serious for an instant. You realize how bad this counter argument is right?
What your are saying is that spaa is so bad against plane that you get kill by tanks faster than you get to kill CAS. Which literally undermine whatever you are trying to prove.
This is probably the worst second-hand embarrassment I’ve ever felt, if I were him I would either change my ign, or delete it then start another one from scratch. Guy’s skin is thicker than crocodiles lol
What more impressive from him is to first, be that confident with his stat, and 2. pull some magic number out of his dream to cope instead of just saying, “stat doesn’t matter for this kind of argument”.
Because stat really doesn’t matter that much.
I have good stat in some very bad vehicles and it would not justify said vehicle being good. With the average player skill, it’s extremely easy to perform well in bad vehicles.
So you do agree with me lol. SPAA sucks because it get easily farmed by tanks while not having enough presence to match CAS. Said CAS can easily avoid SPAA and get free kill on tanks. All this with an absurdly low cost, fast arrival on the battlefield, invulnerable bubble of the Airfield AA, infinite repair and rearm.
If SPAA were as good as you said, you’d have no issue killing enough plane to make up for the tank death.
It is honestly embarrassing sharing earth with you
Exaggerating much?
Even if we agree to your funny dividing death by 5 you do realize that it also affect us?
Like my kugel goes to 442/100.6 arround 4.4 KD, while your best is Ostwind at 3.36.
Bravo, you just proved that you have worst stat than me. Happy?
Joke aside, As I said I don’t stat shame, tho my banter seems to hit you hard ;). And I have yet to see you answer to the more factual argument.
Again and again you are just proving that SPAA is as useless as I am saying. You wrote 300+ word explaining that SPAA can only hope to take out a distracted plane, something everyones agree on.
I too can kill a distracted Abrams in a 3.0 tank, doesn’t make it balanced.
I am very much below average player. The fact that SPAA can make me look average even when played sub optimally really says something.
Well, It still makes you look bad, not average. I don’t know what you are about here? If you divide everyone’s death in spaa by 5, everyone see the same increase in KD. So now the guy that had 2.0 KD while you had 0.5 has 10.0 and you just have 2.5
So it doesn’t say anything. you may as well double everyone kills.
And I’m still waiting for you to address my arguments, instead of indulging in complacency about you being bad. And actually state what you are arguing for.
