How is the Marder A1 allowed to remain in this state

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
1

How is the Marder allowed to remain in as bad of condition as it is considering it’s win rate hovers at 35-42% which is insanely low. For a team that balances around statistics it’s wild they don’t seem to care about this one. The missiles are too slow and don’t do enough post pen damage, the acceleration on the vehicle is insanely slow as in reverse is faster to accelerate, and the whole weapon system is insanely underpowered to the point the vehicle has trouble even fighting light tanks of the same tier. The autocannon is so bad with the HVAP round that it bounces freaking 5.3 light tanks. Whats the point of a decent fire control system if the actual rounds do nothing?

This doesn’t even take into account if you lose your gunner/commander, you can’t even fire the crappy MILAN anymore.

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2

First, I think it’s important to normalize the win rate against German vehicles in general. across the board Gemma WR and KD values are lower than average, and that’s a really a function of Germany (and the US and Russia) attracting lots off inexperienced first time players.

That being said, I agree the Marder leaves a bit to be desired. The question is, what do you do about it?

Sure, it can go down in BR, but the autocannon won’t be that much more effective, and in fact it might be less efficient in combating enemies as WW2 era enemies tend to have armor

The devs could implement some of the suggested IFV mechanics (like replacing downed crew members) but I think we all m ow that the average player isn’t very team minded

Honestly the best bet I can think of is introducing a ground mode with ai infantry, similar to the WW1 aprils fools event, as that would provide plenty of soft targets for the Marder

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They need to up the ammo count on the MILANs, Fix the stupid HVAP round bouncing and shattering way too easily, and allow the MILAN to be fired if the commander is missing.

4

20mm HVAP is the only real issue. It can’t even break tracks properly, it does so little damage you would rather be using a 50cal as your main gun. Buff that just a bit and the vehicle would be quite alright, would also be nice for a few other vehicles that suffer from the terrible shell type.

5

thats the players not the vehicle. German players are pretty damn bad and marder is the first thing they have had that isnt rather blatantly undertiered

Ratel 20 is identical armaments but with 8mm of armour yet does very well when not much lower.

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Ratel 20 is 6.7 meaning it barely faces any stabilized tanks and doesn’t have to face 35mm Oerlikon or other really annoying autocannon vehicles. It also has 7 missiles vs Marder 1 4.
Really I take Ratel over Marder 1 any day. Really only good thing about Marder is how decent AA it is and you can annoy enemy players by just taking out their tracks.
Fact that Marder 1 doesn’t get DM63 while AMX-10P, SUB-I-II are allowed to have it at 5.3br is insane.
HVAP is so bad that facing a BMP-1 is like facing a heavy tank in a Marder.

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neiter does a marder at 7.3. you have centurions and thats about it.

SPAA shouldnt get AP at all

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Only Centurion?
Lets forget M60A2,M60AOS,Bradley, 906,T-55A,TO-55,PT-76-57,Centurion mk.3/mk10, Vickers…

Then you have the whole list of SPAAs Type, Marksman, Falcon all the things that can just drive around the corner and nail you from the move or even from +1000m away.

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most of that is full uptier. and only the T55 is a major issue out of them all.

yea. none of those should have AP. SPAAs are overpowered and bad for the game

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They should probably just make the gunner replace the commander instead of vice-versa, since on Marder A1- both crew have identical periscopes (PERI Z11) and also identical abilities/controls to aim/fire the guns.

This would mean that you’d still be able to use the MILAN even when 1 crew-member dies, as the commander is the crew-member who controls it.

And the 20x139 HVAP-T underperforming so horrendeously hard is also not helping.

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Also cool that it just shatters at higher angles on platings that it should be capable of penetrating…

11

Ratel 20 sits a full br lower and has 7 ATGM’s instead of just 4. both Ratel 20 and Marder A1 are better at light SPAAG duty then engaging tanks. Once the ATGM’s run out, ity’s just scout and tickle enemies ;P

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the ratel is sitting at a BR where things generally have much more armour, making the gun less worthwhile. Yet its still a VERY capable vehicle. have that weapon set, even with 3 less missiles, at a BR where less armour is more common and it ought to be a nuke printer.

Im certain of it as the ratel 20 is a nuke printer itself.

13

It seems Germany as Tech tree is supposed to be beaten down into the mud. Most of the vehicles, almost all would actually need BR decrases. The stat based BR change system doesn’t work for Germany. As soon as a leopard or marder is on the list for a BR decrease, community goes crazy and its off the list one day later. As it happened this month. Over the last 3 years almost every Germany vehicle has sub-standard stats. Which should be impossible with the dynamic BR stat system.

German units got too many nerfs in pen, speed…unlogical high BRs. Toal lack of stabilized tanks, speedy vehicles, scouting. CAS terrible and over BRed.

Gajin staff refuses to change it. Reverse some nerfs…BR adjustement? Never.

14

I mean you’re talking about the Leopard 1a5 there, of the 9.3 MBTs there are far worse ones that weren’t getting moved down, and its performance in the Swedish, French, and Italian trees is noticeably better

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Cause their lineups are better and carry them.

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Perhaps you should go ahead and play the Marder A1- yourself first.

Ratel 20 is not exactly the best comparison to it playstyle-wise, especially since the MILAN launcher is positioned well above the turret-roof, allowing you to use it without exposing the turret.

On Marder, the difference in height is way lower (if you can even call it existent given that you’ll still need some clearance for the missile to not faceplant itself into the dirt).

The additional 3 atgms in capacity are much more significant than you make it out to be, especially at 7.7, where the amount of hellcats to click is also much lower, wheras the amount of vehicles that the 20mm HVAP can deal with otherwise doesnt change to a relevant degree.

17

Thats exactly the issue. The pure hate German players get from large parts of the community. Also the forum staff, which never had any issues to let ppl write this discriminating stuff again and again and again. So it became almost a forum standard.

Whenever a Ger vehicle performs bad and is on the list to get some kind of buff, community intervenes and makes it not happen by bringing exactly this kind of argument. As if players of other nations are any different. They just get better toys and their lineups are just superior. Mainly its cause of far superior speed, superior cas, stabilizers and superior autocannon vehicles trolling most German units.

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18

If the win rates differed but the k/d were the same, then yes that would be a worthwhile point, but K/D is about as line up agnostic as it gets (and German operated vehicles that appear in other trees, like the Leopard 1a5, still trail other nations).

And beyond that, are you seriously trying to tell me that the German 9.3 line up (T-72, Leopard 1a5, Tam 2IP, L1a1 L/44, M48 Super, KPZ-70) is better than French 9.3 (AMX-32 105, VBCI, Leopard 1a5Be)?

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No. Leopards which get supported by stong CAS, whose flanks are secured by capable autocannon speeders etc etc … get also better game results. Live longer and kill more stuff.

20

But German teams are paired with other nations, so you have Swedish, Italian, French, etc players on your flanks or flying CAS.

I’ve posted some on the warthunder subreddit about the issue, and I’ll share some snippets of the analyses here, but this figure (out of date but still largely applicable) summarizes the issue with the skill level distribution between Big-3 and minor nations.

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*note that russia stood out because at the time I equally weighted each vehicle, and the Panther T-V REALLY skewed the results, hence Russia appearing twice in the summary table.

Source

This issue is near universal for Germany

M44:

Spoiler

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Leopard 2a4:

Spoiler

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T-72A

Spoiler

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At the end of the Day, Germany suffers from being a new player magnet AND doesn’t have enough top tier line ups to keep veteran players engaged. This results in a noticeable experience imbalance between the average German (or US/Russian Player) and those of minor nations, so three steps are needed to address the global problem:

  1. Germany needs new content to attract veteran players back, and namely I think that’s from especially in the 9.7-12.3 window

  2. Minor Nations need to be made more attractive for new players.

  3. Germany needs to provide a better transition from the Heavy tank playstyle of 5.3-6.7 and the glass cannon playstyle of 8.0+

To address point 1, I’d suggest additions like the PT06/14 mod (11.0 line up), 2a7a1 (hopefully this update), a Lynx Variant, Keiler ET01/ET02, and Leopard 2 testbeds like the SVT. Giving Germany more lineups with depth should attract back the veteran players who have already ground out the tree.

For Point 2, It’ll take a multifaceted approach, but suggestions include:

  1. Make a rotating research bonus for players that favors the least played nations, and give a larger bonus for players who have less in game time (say 25% for new players, -5% for each tree that’s maxed out till it hits +10%)

  2. Give Minor trees their unique vehicles in the TT, and not as FOMO. Things like the Toldi, Turan, EBR-1954, Cent Mk2, etc should really be in the TT.

  3. Reduce the copy-paste nature of minor trees. I get that especially on the air front, copy-paste and import designs is a necessity, but on the ground I think the devs have gone overboard on adding import vehicles, especially from subtrees. This makes the trees seem lot less unique, which reduces the distinct flavor of each tree.

Finally, for point 3, I think Germany needs an infusion of light and medium tanks like the Leopard 1 prototypes, second RU-251 prototype, and Spahpanzer so that it eases new players into the Leopard 1 itself.