Give the HEVT round back to Veak40 and move it up

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
17

Very balanced being an objectively inferior version of an already mid 7.7. Compared with the ZSU-37-2, you have almost half the rate of fire and slower shells. This makes hitting targets, especially manuevering targets, more down to luck than skill as they can literally fly between the shells that are being fired.

It’s only better at tank hunting, which is not something Sweden needed for this lineup, since between the USH and ZSU-57-2 they had no shortage of squishy flanking tanks.

And even if it was balanced at 7.7, that’s still irrelevant to the core of my argument, which is that it’s position at 8.7 was critically important to the overall CAS versus SPAA balance. Removing one of two vehicles that can even hope to counter guided weapon CAS at the tier and not replacing it with anything was a terrible move for game balance.

And don’t give me the historical accuracy argument either. This isn’t some fantasy round that never existed or worked (Looking at you 128mm APHEDS rounds that just IRL shattered due to the high velocity). These are rounds that would obviously have been given to the VEAK later in life had it entered service. The same justification as dozens of other historically inaccurate vehicles. A small price to pay for game balance.

7 Likes
18

ZSU-37-2 has an inferior radar by far.
8.7 already has a capable SPAA platform for the CAS available.
People are still engaging too far away which forces aircraft to keep their distance.
If aircraft see no tracers they get closer due to confidence.
People forget to check kill feeds when on the ground and don’t remember if SPAA is up.

It’s why I yelled at people in 2020 that were firing on aircraft from more than 2.5km away when using my Japanese Gepard.

All historically inaccurate vehicles AKA paper vehicles AKA blueprint only vehicles will be delisted at some point so your last paragraph doesn’t matter.
The game is already balanced in the VEAK regard.

19

Whew, one whole point for the VEAK. A great RADAR that’s rendered largely pointless by the weakness in actually hitting the targets it can spot. What a great combo, spawn a VEAK as a dedicated spotter SPAA alongside an actually effective one.

Nope. ATGM helicopters at 8.3/8.7 can render themselves completely immune to Gepard and Gepard equivalents (Including the ItPsv 90) by simply staying at least 2.5km out and jinking slightly. A-4Es are even stronger, being able to Walleye or Bullpup you from outside your effective range.

Proxy was the only round capable of consistently countering ATGM helicopters, and the only thing that had a hope in hell of countering an A-4E (Even if it was a losing battle most of the time). There is now a single vehicle left with proxy at this tier, and it’s always on the American A-4E’s team.

In other words, hope to hell the CAS you’re facing are idiots with a three second attention span. Got it. As if the first thing an A-4E or ATGM helicopter looks for isn’t SPAAs for them to preemptively counter.

And guess what distance ATGM helicopters and A-4Es can kill you from?

Laughs in missing APDS for the Lvkv 42 and VEAK
Laughs in F-5C flares.
Laughs in Maus APHEDS.
Laughs in F-4F missiles
Laughs in T-2/F-1 missiles.
Laughs in Finnish MiG-21 Bis missiles.
Laughs in T-34-100 rounds.
Laughs in the 9040C being the only 9040 to get m/01 rounds.
Bofors L/60 guns using L/70 ammo, which they aren’t compatible with.
Type 16s (2016 vintage) using rounds rendered obsolete in the early 80s.
ZA-35 not getting any APDS.
Several missing rounds for the HSTVL.
Need I go on?

I want it made clear, most if not all of these historical inaccuracies are good for the game. Balance is (and always should be) the priority over slavish historical accuracy. Making every vehicle perfectly accurate leads to trying to balance flareless F-5Cs, or ZA-35s with APDS belts. Sometimes bending history is preferable.

6 Likes
20

Gepard range against helicopters is 3.5km, it’s what I learned using my Type 8X and helicopters alike.
The only times I didn’t die in my 7.7 2km helicopter is no one was in SPAA, legit zero people. Once they were even in a Model 42 I was gone cause the range is too short.
Helicopter engagement range for SPAA is always further than jet range, and jet range for Gepard like vehicles is <2.5km. Add a km for helicopters.
It’s like Pantsir, it can hit helicopters out to 18km, can’t hit a fast moving jet beyond 13 nearly all the time.

A-4E’s maximum range is usually 3km, and that’s at bomb drop, by the time they pulled up they’re within 2.5km. It’s worse on some maps, slightly better on others.

As for your final paragraph:
1- That is a request for info not confirmation.
2- Accurate. This is well known that F-5As can have flares.
3- Was a real round tested in Jagdtiger and Maus came after Jagdtiger.
4- F-4Fs can indeed use missiles.
5- Mig-21Bis can indeed use missiles.
6- The 100mm gun of T-34-100 did indeed fire those rounds.
7- Those auto-lights did indeed use those rounds.
8- Bug report with evidence.
9- They are indeed capable of firing those rounds.
10- ZA-35 guns do not have the APDS compartment, thus it not having APDS is accurate.
11- HSTVL’s current round is accurate and advanced rounds would make its BR higher than the top MBTs in War Thunder.

Everything you stated are historically accurate to those vehicles with 2 suspect issues: 8 and 1.
The suspect issues are however non-confirmed.

21

That is when heli players is stupid enough to not evade Your shoots.

What? What about guided bombs?

7 Likes
22

That is the guided bombs. TV guided bombs have a tendency to lock the ground rather than the tank.
CCIP bombing [Saab 105G] is 1 - 2km.
Non-CCIP bombing is even less.

23

I would go with eaisly with 3km, not to mention that at 2km SPAA is not able to hit You, if You are not flying in straight line.

3 Likes
24

In 2019? I learned to imagine the arch of the lead indicator during turns cause JP Gepard.
I got accurate out to 2.5km with it, starting at 1.5km back then. Can’t stretch it beyond 2.5km, my imagination’s not strong enough.
Though I have seen players that can, largely ones that frag me.

Straight line I’ve hit out to 3.8km, though it’s usually closer to 3.3 for jets if they go straight.
And TV guided is a lot of time staying straight.
Probably why I rarely see A-4s in my ground matches anymore.
I see a lot of F-80s at 6.7 now though for some reason.

25

You can imagine what can happen but air player can act accordingly to that and still evade it. I have done it all the time, that is why I don’t fear radar gun SPAA outside of 1.5km range

What? I just drop my bomb and do whatever while it destroys the target.

26

If being flown by the blind and deaf, sure. Try hitting a Z-11W, Scout or Allouette who knows what they’re doing.

There’s a reason I called out the 8.3/8.7 ones. The Swedish Huey and Mi-4 can be countered by Gepard and equivalent SPAAs. The later ones cannot, if they’re played skillfully.

The Youtube video is a primary source, the thread is simply looking for more information.

And found to shatter when it hit actual armor plate. Surprise surpise, a simple steel walled shell designed for 1000 m/s doesn’t do so well when propelled at 1230 m/s. AFAIK, the project then considered using tungsten and other materials better suited for the high velocity, but due to the lack of such materials by that stage the project stalled.

German F-4Fs didn’t use AIM-9Es or Js in service, only AIM-9 B FGW2s and AIM-9Ls.

The Finnish MiG-21 Bis didn’t use R-13M1s or R60MKs in service, only base model R60s and possibly (I vaguely remember) AIM-9Ps later in life.

The T-34-100 was a WW2 era prototype was rejected by the Soviets shortly before the end of the war (Rejected in favor of the T-44). In game, it’s using the decidedly post WW2 BR-412D rounds, first produced years after the project was cancelled. AKA the exact justification for why the VEAK lost it’s HEVT rounds.

All can use the m/01 round. Only the 9040C gets it. My point exactly.

Already was, 10 months ago.

Capable, yes, but never did. Japan retired M735 decades before the Type 16 was ever concieved. Giving them M735 as their top round is equivalent to giving the Object 685 base BR-412 as it’s top round.

It’s not a special, magical compartment. 35mm APDS has the exact same dimensions and loading requirements as any other 35mm rounds. The only reason that compartment exists on Gepard and Marksman turrets is doctrine, SPAA weren’t intended to fight on the front line so they only got a tiny reserve for self defense. The ZA-35 has no such reserve, and so despite there being no reason why it cannot load APDS in the main belt, it doesn’t get any.

Again, my exact point. The HSTVL is unhistorical based on balance alone, and Gaijin shouldn’t change it to be historical as that would break the balance. We are in agreement.

7 Likes
27

VEAK 40’s change to 7.7 is good.

Z-11, the 8.7 one, only has a range of 2.9km.
YouTube videos are not primary sources. F-4Fs are capable and always have been capable of 9Es and Js, manual > lies.
All Mig-21Bis are capable of R-13s.
T-34-100 can fire those rounds. Different circumstance entirely.
9040C is the one that’s 10.0.
It’s irrelevant that M735 is retired in military service or not, we aren’t playing as the JSDF.
Yes, it is a special compartment. Source: The Swiss company that makes them.
HSTVL is historical.
Your posts keep saying the same incorrect thing over and over again expecting a different result.

1 Like
28

Not a math guy, are you? What’s bigger, the 2.5km minimum range to be safe from SPAA, or the 3km maximum range of the HJ-8A? Although, that 2.5km is a soft figure, as the Z-11W is so fast, small and agile compared to the others it’s often able to dodge rounds up to 2km from the battlefield, in my experience.

It is when it’s literally a promotional video produced by Bofors itself in order to sell the L/70 gun to English speaking armies. It also literally has a cutaway image of the APDS round. What, did they mock up a fake round to put it into a promotional video? Why?

Once again, you’re agreeing with me without realizing it. All three of those vehicles are currently using weapons they never had IRL. They’re all compatible with them, but historically speaking none of them are accurate.

Similarly, all Bofors L/70 guns can fire HEVT. There is nothing preventing it, no special adapter needed like 35mm AHEAD. Accordingly, the VEAK 40 is also completely capable of firing HEVT.

It just never did IRL as according to Gaijin’s sources, m/484 isn’t HEVT (Although I know of at least one secondary source that says it is), and HEVT was not developed for the standard L/70 for a few more years.

Saying that you’re OK with these three firing weapons they never had IRL, but could theoretically fire, in the name of balance, is the crux of my entire argument.

The Strf 9040C, Lvkv 9040C and Strf 9040B (BILL) are all 10.0. This was not difficult to check.

Oh, good, that means the VEAK can get it’s HEVT back then since we aren’t playing with historical vehicles. Glad you keep agreeing with me, although I don’t think you quite understand it.

If you’re going to quote a source, you need to actually link to it. I can find no reference to 35mm APDS requiring special loading procedures, and all the sources I can find (Including a brochure from Oerlikon) show APDS as having the exact same case dimensions. They also explicitly say that it’s compatible with the non-self propelled twin GDF guns, which are clip loaded instead of belt loaded.

No it isn’t, and you’ve already said so yourself. It’s missing several rounds it historically had during testing. Not having these rounds makes it not historically accurate.

9 Likes
29

Not at all.
Both could fire shells that were designed later.
VEAK 40 got its shell removed, T34-100 not.

4 Likes
30

A6e is getting equipment it never had in a later update so…

34

I love when people bring up decisions made in 2015 or 2016 to try to justify things in 2024!

I don’t agree with 16AJ being added either, but at least this one was more necessary.

Yeah because it would not be balanced otherwise, wanna tell the class why you’re putting “game balance” in quotations?

yeah this doesnt have to do with the VEAK

35

(worse SPAA than gepard at higher br lol)

1 Like
39

Typical Gaijin remove the stuff due to historical reason but this sht never applying on Russian

4 Likes
47

What are you talking about?
The ZSU-57-2 doesn’t have proximity rounds either.
If you’re going to make false claims, go do it on Reddit where it’s the norm.

51

What about no?

53

Yet russian tanks are made better, for the sake of balance. They wouldnt dream of nerfing those.

1 Like