German WW1/2 Tank, Anti Tank guns and more of 7,92mm - 21 cm

Part 2
Continuation of the Main Topic duo to Comment size limit.


10,5 cm K.18 L/52
Pictures:(Click to show)


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The 10,5 cm K.18 L/52 was the heavy 10(,5) cm schwere Kanone and bigger brother to the 10,5 cm LeFH 18 L/28, mainly used as Artillery, heavy AT guns and to attack heavy fortifications.
Generally speaking its a good gun for its class, trails for a longer barrle with increased velocity to 905m/s was trailed, however it was seen as not worth to implement as the range increase to weight increase was not great enove. Overall this gun was build onto the Pz.Sfl. IVb aka Dicker Max and was designed to attack the heavy fortified position of the Maginot line. Cince it came too late for that, it was reclassified as a Heavy tank destroyer and used on the Eastern front, where it could destroy even the heavy armored KW-1E tanks from great range.

Caliber: 105mm

Ammo: 105x650mmR (3rd/große ladung)

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Fire Rate: 12 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 822-835m/s

Weight: 5720 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Field gun

Ammo Types: Apcbc, He, Saphe


Ap:


Pzgr. Rot (Apcbc) 15,56 kg 250g (357,5g) 822m/s 186mm/10m

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Pzgr. Rot (Ei) ((S)apbc) 15,56kg 135g Fp.02, Fp.10 and Pyrin (173g Tnta?) 822m/s 178mm/10m

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He:


Gr.19 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 15,14kg 1,75kg Fp.02 and Np.10 835m/s

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Gr.19 (Bo.Pr) (He-TF (No Tracer)) 15,14kg 1,85kg Fp.02 and Np.10 835m/s

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10,5 cm KwK L/47
Pictures:(Click to show)


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For the Vk 30.01 (P) tank armed with the proposed 10,5 cm KwK L/47, which is a modified 10,5 cm K.18 L/52 with new one piece ammo and a little bit more power, but shorter barrel. While the gun lost to the 8,8 cm KwK 36 L/56 and the tank didnt go into produktion.

Caliber: 105mm

Ammo: 105x672mm

Fire Rate: 12 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 837, 850m/s

Weight: 1960 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun

Ammo Types: Apcbc, He, Saphe


Ap:


Pzgr. Rot (Apcbc) 15,56 kg 250g (357,5g) 837m/s 192mm/10m

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Pzgr. Rot (Ei) ((S)apbc) 15,56kg 135g Fp.02, Fp.10 and Pyrin (173g Tnta?) 837m/s 182mm/10m

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He:


Gr.19 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 15,14kg 1,75kg Fp.02 and Np.10 850m/s

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Gr.19 (Bo.Pr) (He-TF (No Tracer)) 15,14kg 1,85kg Fp.02 and Np.10 850m/s

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12,8 cm K.40 L/61
Pictures:(Click to show)


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The 12,8 cm K.40 L/61 was basically the 12,8 cm Flak 40 L/61 in a anti ground rolle. Cince its incredible size and weight it was quite difficult to make a self propelled version, as such the Vehicle was basically build around the gun, the Sturer Emil based on the Vk 30.01 (H) with extended hull and the gun placed at the very end. Intended as a heavy assault gun like the 10,5 cm Dicker Max, however came too late to the French attack and the intended target was gone around, as such it took on the rolle of the Heavy Tank destoryer. However even tho it did it rolle very well, it stayed at the 2x Protoypes as it was decided that a Tank destoryer with such gun should be either a light and mobile chassis with a 360° Turret such as the later Waffenträger or a heavily armored Casemate designe such as the Jagdtiger, while this was neither, it was slow, relatively low armored Casemate tank destoryer. The original Flak 40 were heavy 17 ton Flaks which were only used in fixed position and Flak Türme, such as in Berlin. While the K.40 was also submitted as the Requested Anti tank gun, it was rejected in favour of the more powerfull Pak 44.

Caliber: 128mm

Ammo: 128x958mmR

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Fire Rate: 12 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 880m/s

Weight: 12000 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed position

Ammo Types: Apc, Apcbc, He


Ap:


Pzgr. (Apc) 26,35kg 550g Ph-Salz and H.10 (786,5g) 233mm/10m

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Pzgr.43 (Apcbc) 28,3kg 550g Ph-Salz and H.10 (786,5g) 880m/s 252mm/10m

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He:


Sprgr. L/4,5 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 26kg 880m/s 3,6kg Fp.02 and Np.10 (4,61kg)

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12,8 cm K.44 L/55 (And other Models)
Pictures:(Click to show)

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Development, along the K.40 and Krupps as well as Rheinmetalls K.44 as in new intended universal/combined Fieldgun and Anti Tank gun, like allready the german army encountered at the russian front with their 12,2 cm L/45 guns. While perhaps the most powerfull AT gun on WW2, even taken as the golden protection standart for new tanks to come, it at the same time failed as a field gun, duo to its size and sheer weight and relative low production numbers.

Caliber: 128mm

Ammo: 128x869mmR

Fire Rate: 12 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 750-1260m/s

Weight: 10,160 kg (Pak 44) 7000 kg (Pak 80)

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed position

Ammo Types: Apc, Apcbc, He, Apcbc-DS, He-DS, HEAT


Ap:


Pzgr. (Apc) 26,35kg 550g Ph-Salz and H.10 (786,5g) 940m/s 233mm/10m

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Pzgr.43 (Apcbc) 28,3kg 550g Ph-Salz and H.10 (786,5g) 950m/s 252mm/10m

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12,8 / 8,8 cm Pzgr. TS (Apcbc-DS) 9,85 kg 0,059 kg H.10 1230-1260m/s 312-323mm/10m


Gr.39 Hl (HEAT) 19,5 kg 600m/s 130mm/30°

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He:


Sprgr. L/4,5 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 26kg 750m/s 3,6kg Fp.02 and Np.10 (4,61kg)

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15 cm s.I.G. 33 L/12 (and StuH 43 L/12)
Pictures:(Click to show)

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Along with its small brother the 7,5 cm Le.I.G. 18 L/12, this gun was intended to be a mobile infantry gun lighter and closer to the frontline than the howitzers, to give direct heavy fire support over the heads of the infantry, with devestating (thinner walled) He rounds and Smoke rounds. Also later on to act quick on Tank attacks equipped with strong HEAT rounds, as well as a Overcaliber HE round to destroy fortifications and Minefields.

Caliber: 150mm

Ammo: 150x129mmR

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For Stielgranate 42:
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Fire Rate: 10 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 105-230-280 m/s

Weight: 1800 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Field Infantry gun

Ammo: HE, HEAT, Smoke, Overcaliber HE


AP:


I.Gr.38 Hl/A (HEAT) 24,58 kg 4,16 kg H.5 (7,07 kg TnTa) 280 m/s 231mm/all


15 cm Mi.Gr.44 (SAPHEDS-FS) 70kg unknown m/s unknown filler




HE:


I.Gr.33 (He (No Tracer)) 38 kg 8,6 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 (11 kg TnTa) 240 m/s

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30 cm Stielgranate 42 (HE-FS (No Tracer)) 90 kg, 54 kg Fp 50/50 (Amatol) 105m/s

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Utility:


I.Gr. 38 Nb (Smoke (No Tracer)) 38,46 kg 2,24 kg Smoke stuff 240 m/s

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Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 40 kg Lead or Steel Balls 230m/s

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15 cm s.F.H. 13 L/17
Pictures:(Click to show)



A WW1 Artillery Piece still in stock, as Germany needed every Gun they got their hands on.
Given new ammunition, it increased its potential, it was mounted on a series of Lorrain Schlepper (f).

Caliber: 150mm

Ammo: 150x112mmR

Fire Rate: 7 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 381-460 m/s

Weight: 2135 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Field Howitzer

Ammo Types: Saphebc, He, Smoke, HEAT


AP:


Gr.19 Be (Beton) (Saphebc (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 3,22 kg Ph-Salz und H.10 (4,6046 kg TnTa) 381 m/s 32-64mm/10m

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Gr.39 Hl/A (HEAT) 24,58 kg 4,16 kg (5,32kg TnTa) 460m/s 185mm/all


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HE:


Gr.19 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 5,208 kg Amatol and Np.10 (6,67kg) 381m/s

Also Pressed filler of 4,336kg Fp.02. Or also with Bu1d. of 4,05kg Np.30 and Azin.
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I.Gr.38 (He (No Tracer)) 38 kg 8,6 kg Amatol and Np.10 (11,01 kg TnTa) 460m/s

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Utility:


Gr.19 Nb. (Smoke (No Tracer)) 39 kg 0,62 kg Np.10 (1,054kg TnTa) 440m/s

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Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 40 kg Lead or Steel Balls 430m/s

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15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30
Pictures:(Click to show)

Interwar development for the Heavy Field Howitzer, to have a as light as possible increased range gun compared to the s.F.H. 13 L/17. While it still showed somewhat lacking range in the war, this was trailed to be fixed with longer L/32 and L/36 barrles, these didnt go along with the s.F.H. 42 into production, instead it was the R.Granate and Sprgr.42 TS which were used as increased range counter Artillery, while the normal ammo was sufficient for normal targets.

Caliber: 150mm

150x260mmR

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Fire Rate: 6 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: 505-880 m/s

Weight: 5512 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Field Howitzer

Ammo Types: Saphebc, He, Smoke, HEAT, Apcbc-DS, HE-DS


AP:


Gr.19 Be (Beton) (Saphebc (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 3,22 kg Ph-Salz und H.10 (4,6046 kg TnTa) 520 m/s 50-100mm/10m

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Gr.39 Hl/A (HEAT) 24,58 kg 4,16 kg (5,32kg TnTa) 465m/s 185mm/all


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15 / 8,8 cm Pzgr.39 TS (Apcbc-DS) 9,85 kg 0,059 kg H.5 880m/s 193mm/10m

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15 cm Mi.Gr.44 (SAPHEDS-FS) 70kg 344m/s unknown filler




HE:


Gr.19 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 5,208 kg Amatol and Np.10 (6,67kg) 520m/s

Also Pressed filler of 4,336kg Fp.02. Or also with Bu1d. of 4,05kg Np.30 and Azin.
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I.Gr.38 (He (No Tracer)) 38 kg 8,6 kg Amatol and Np.10 (11,01 kg TnTa) 465m/s

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15 / 12,8 cm Sprgr.42 TS (HE-TF-DS (No Tracer)) 27,15 kg 3,4 kg Amatol 645 m/s

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R.Granate 19 (He-TF Rocket assisted (No Tracer)) 43,9kg 505m/s (Start velocity)

Fig514_10
Fig514_11
Fig514_13
Fig514_14
Fig514_12
Fig514_15


Utility:


Gr.19 Nb. (Smoke (No Tracer)) 39 kg 0,62 kg Np.10 (1,054kg TnTa) 543m/s

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Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 40 kg Lead or Steel Balls 530m/s

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15 cm Sk C/28 L/55 in Mörserlafette

Pzgr. L/3,7 (m.Hb.) Apcbc 45,5 kg 1,1 kg Fp.02 875 m/s 283mm/10m
Sprgr. L/4,5 Kz (m.Hb.) He 45,5 kg 3,64 kg Fp.02 875 m/s 37mm/all
Sprgr. L/4,4 Bdz (m.Hb.) Sapbc 45,5 kg 3,03 kg Fp.02 875 m/s


17 cm K.72 L/50
Data Sheet

Barely readable, but "Pzgr.43 850m/s


AP:


Pzgr.43 (Apcbc) 71 kg 2,345 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 filler (3 kg TnTa) 850 m/s with 303mm/10m

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He:


K.Gr.38 (Hb.) (Hebc (TF)) 62,8 kg 6,105 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 (7,81 kg TnTa) 930 m/s

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K.Gr.39 (He) 68 kg 7,33 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 filler (9,38 kg TnTa) 875 m/s

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21 cm M.18 L/31
Pictures:(Click to show)

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It was a prewar designe, called Mörser, as per book all german guns of 20 cm and up are Mörser (Mortars), even tho this would be more of a Howitzer. It was an effective gun for its size, used in a multitude of rolls from artillery to bashing in reinforced structures and even makeshift Anti tank if needed.

Caliber: 210mm

Ammo: 210x410mmR

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Fire Rate: 1 rpm

Single Shot, Horizontal sliding Breechblock

Muzzle velocity: ? - 565 m/s

Weight: 16700 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed position

Ammo Types: He, Saphebc, Saphedsfs

Datasheet for the 21 cm Mrs 18 L/31

Screenshot 2024-03-30 233220


AP:


Gr.18 Be (Sapbc) 121,4 kg 11,5 kg filler of Fp.02 und Np.10 (14,72kg) 565 m/s with 163mm/10m penetration

Screenshot 2023-08-02 222857


12 cm Rö.Gr.42 Be (Saphedsfs (No Tracer)) 193 kg 2,86 kg filler unknown velocity

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12 cm Rö.Gr.44 Be (Saphedsfs (No Tracer)) 193 kg 7,255 kg filler unknown velocity (see 42 Be)


HE:


Gr.18 (He (No Tracer)) 133kg 17,35 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 Filler (22,21 kg TnTa) 565m/s

Screenshot 2023-08-02 222907




WW1 Section:



7,92 mm Mg 08/18
Pictures:(Click to show)

Mg 08 was the german take on the Maxim MG in 7,92x57mm, with its long barrle (721mm) it had very good velocity and by that combined with the K-Geschoss even enove penetration to penetrate the Mark Tanks of the British. It was still in usage in the interwar period and WW2, while its main use was in WW1 on the ground, in vehicles, Trucks, Tanks and planes in different versions.

Caliber: 7,92mm

Ammo: 7,92x57mm

Fire Rate: 500-600 rpm

Single Shot, Full auto, 250 / 500 round belts
Muzzle velocity: 900m/s

Weight: Mg 08/15 19,5 kg, Mg 08/18 15 kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed and flexible, Field Guns

Ammo Types: Ap, Ball


13,2mm T-Gewehr M1918


13,2 mm Mg 18 TuF
Pictures:(Click to show)

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After the appearance of the British Tank, solutions were searched with one beeing the idea of a dedicated High Caliber Heavy Machine gun, fireing the 13,2x92mmSR ammo. With the Stopgap beeing the T-Gewehr 1918. Intended to be against Tanks und Flieger (Tanks and Planes).
While the Velocity compared to the T-Gewehr drastically dropped to 550m/s, it was still enove to penetrate the British Tanks.

Caliber: 13,2mm

Ammo: 13,2x92mmSR Polte

Fire Rate: 500 rpm

Single Shot, Full auto, 50 Round drumm or 75 Round Belts

Muzzle velocity: 550m/s

Weight: 37kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed and flexible, Field Guns

Ammo Types: Ap, Ap-T, Ap-I

Video about the ammo:(Click to show)

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPtmrlf6Vlg)


AP:


TuF Pz.Patrone (AP) 0,0515g 550m/s 16mm/10m



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TuF Pz.Brand.Patrone (Ap-I) 550m/s 16mm/10m



2 cm Becker M.II
Pictures:(Click to show)

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One of the first modern type 20mm Cannon and served as the basis for the later Oerlikon 20mm FF guns. Using the API Blowback action. It was Intended as a AA and AT gun, on ground, vehicles and planes/airships. Later M3 variant was heavyer, reducing the fire rate to 250 rpm but velocity to 700m/s.
It was intended as 20mm, to not be a warcrime to have an explosive filling, overall the ammo layout was also quite modern, with multiple AP rounds, HE rounds as well as incendary rounds.

Caliber: 20mm

Ammo: 20x70mmRB Becker

Fire Rate: 325 rpm

Single Shot, Full auto, 15 rounds Magazin

Muzzle velocity: 490-500m/s

Weight: 30kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed and flexible

Ammo Types: Ap-T, I-T, I, HEI, HE

Summary Of ammo Drawings:(Click to show)








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(The drawing isnt fully correct, as the nose is too thinn drawn.)



AP:


Panzergeschoß L'Spur Modell 1 (ApI-T) 145g 490m/s 18mm/10m

(Can be conciddered ApI-T, duo to huge tracer filling, made of Barium Nitrate, Magnesium and Shellac of 7g.)


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Panzergeschoß L’Spur Modell 2 (ApI-T) (Identical to first one, different head form, see in above summary.)


HE:


Sprenggeschoß Modell 1 (He High capcity, Fuzeless) 137 g
5,5g TNT + 0,5g Pieic acid 495m/s (See ammo Summary)


Sprenggeschoß Modell 2 (He) 137g 5g TNT 495m/s

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Incendary:


Brandgeschoß (I) 137g 12g Incendary 495m/s some penetration

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Leuchtspurgeschoß (I-T) 144g Barium Nitrate, Magnesium, Shellac filler 11g 490m/s some penetration



(A bit incorrect here)



3,7 cm Sockel Flak L/14,5

Weight: 215kg 120 RPM 355 m/s for the 0,47 kg He and 360 m/s for the 0,465 kg SapI-T velocity. -5° to + 80° elevation.

Overall 4 rounds existed, beeing of old and new designe, as well as possible different designes of different construction. 2x He rounds and 2x ApI-T rounds existed.
these include the.


AP:


L'Spur.-Gr. L/2,5

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Screenshot 2024-08-02 140932
Screenshot 2024-08-02 140920
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L'Spur.-Gr. L/2,5 (Stahl) (ApI-T) 0,465 kg 360m/s 14mm/10m

Can be conciddered ApI-T, duo to its huge tracer filling of Barium Nitrate, Magnesium and Shellac.
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Screenshot 2024-08-06 191258
Screenshot 2024-08-06 191247



HE:


Gr. L/2,5

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Screenshot 2024-08-02 141554
Screenshot 2024-08-02 141541


Sprgr. L/2,5 (Kz.) (He (No Tracer)) 0,47 kg 0,042kg Pieretic Acid (0,0462kg TnTa) 355m/s

Also aparently a 2nd version with base plug, weight of 0,45kg and 0,04kg He Filler.
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Screenshot 2024-08-02 140911
Screenshot 2024-08-02 140858


Here a link to replica L'Spur.-Gr. L/2,5 (Stahl)

3,7 37x101SR Deutsch Sockel Flak Deko Patrone - Muna-Rheinland Deko Munition Sammlermunition



3,7 cm TaK 1918 L/21,8 (And Fischer)
Pictures:(Click to show)

3,7 cm TAK 1918 L/21,6


3,7 cm TAK L/21,6 System Fischer
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Uses the standart 3,7 cm Naval ammo.
I will only note the 2 later main rounds, there was later also a 600g Aphe shell developed. All shells visible at the 3,7 cm Sockel Flak L/14,5.


AP:


L'Spur.-Gr. L/2,5 (Stahl) (ApI-T) 0,465 kg 506m/s 22mm/10m

Can be conciddered ApI-T, duo to its huge tracer filling of Barium Nitrate, Magnesium and Shellac.
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Screenshot 2024-08-06 191258
Screenshot 2024-08-06 191247



Pzgr. (A) (Aphe-T) 0,67 kg 10g Pent (17g TnTa) 435m/s-494m/s 18-21mm/10m

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HE:


Sprgr. L/2,5 (Kz.) (He (No Tracer)) 0,47 kg 0,042kg Pieretic Acid (0,0462kg TnTa) 506m/s (Some AP performance)

Some AP Performance, as seen in the British Document, used against tanksup to 880 yards.
Also aparently a 2nd version with base plug, weight of 0,45kg and 0,04kg He Filler.
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Screenshot 2024-08-02 140911
Screenshot 2024-08-02 140858



3,7 cm Flak M14 L/29 "Pom-Pom"
Pictures:(Click to show)

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Uses the standart 3,7 cm Naval ammo.
I will only note the 2 later main rounds, there was later also a 600g Aphe shell developed, but i couldnt find much info on it anyway. All shells visible at the 3,7 cm Sockel Flak L/14,5.

3,7 cm Flak M14 L/29 “Pom-Pom” (German produced and used licensed copy of the 1-Pounder Maxim-Nordenfelt Pom-Pom gun). Also named simply as 3,7 cm MK (Maschinenkanone).

Caliber: 37mm

Ammo: 37x94mmR

Fire Rate: 300 rpm

Single Shot, Full auto, Belt Fed

Muzzle velocity: 550m/s

Weight: 186kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun, Fixed and flexible

Ammo Types: ApI-T, He


AP:


L'Spur.-Gr. L/2,5 (Stahl) (ApI-T) 0,465 kg 550m/s 26mm/10m

Can be conciddered ApI-T, duo to its huge tracer filling of Barium Nitrate, Magnesium and Shellac.
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Screenshot 2024-08-06 191258
Screenshot 2024-08-06 191247



HE:


Sprgr. L/2,5 (Kz.) (He (No Tracer)) 0,47 kg 0,042kg Pieretic Acid (0,0462kg TnTa) 550m/s (Some AP performance ~16mm/10m)

Some AP Performance, as seen in the British Document, used against tanksup to 880 yards.
Also aparently a 2nd version with base plug, weight of 0,45kg and 0,04kg He Filler.
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Screenshot 2024-08-02 140911
Screenshot 2024-08-02 140858



5 cm BAK L/30

Caliber: 53mm

Ammo: 53x?mm

Fire Rate: 30-35 rpm

Single Shot

Muzzle velocity: 450-500m/s

Weight: ?kg

Mounting: Main Tank gun

Ammo Types: SAPHE, Shrapnell-TF

-5° to +70° Elevation, 60° Traverse


SAPHE:


Gr.(P.) ((SAP)He (No Tracer))) 1,67kg 0,085kg Blackpowder 500m/s 30mm/10m

Screenshot 2024-07-26 152841
Screenshot 2024-07-26 152829




Utility:


Bodenkammer Schrapnell Gr. (Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 2,4kg 40g Blackpowder 450m/s Some Penetration?

Contains 128 Hrad Cast Lead Balls of 8g and 36 Hard Cast Lead Pieces of 9g each.
Like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, detonating mid air and ejecting the Shrapnell onto the target.
Some incendary effect by the pitch around the balls.
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5,3 cm Gruson L/24,5
Pictures:(Click to show)



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Only employed on the Fahrpanzer (at least 1 self propelled Truck Combo was constructed amd photographed, more were build in the fashion, but badly documented.)
Armor: 40mm Cast Iron, lower hull 10-14,5mm Steel Plating.

Caliber: 53mm

Ammo: 53x177mm

Fire Rate: 30-35 rpm

Single Shot

Muzzle velocity: 445-495m/s

Weight: 160kg

Mounting: Main Fixed turret Gun 360° Traverse at 24°/sec +/-10° Elevation

Ammo Types: SAPHE, Shrapnell-TF


AP:


Gr.(P.) ((SAP)He (No Tracer)) 1,67kg 0,085kg Blackpowder 495m/s 28mm/10m

Screenshot 2024-07-26 152841
Screenshot 2024-07-26 152829




Utility:


Ct. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 1,9kg 480m/s


Bodenkammer Schrapnell Gr. (Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 2,4kg 40g Blackpowder 445m/s Some Penetration?

Contains 128 Hrad Cast Lead Balls of 8g and 36 Hard Cast Lead Pieces of 9g each.
Like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, detonating mid air and ejecting the Shrapnell onto the target.
Some incendary effect by the pitch around the balls.
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5,7 cm Maxim-Nordenfelt L/26

5,7 cm Maxim-Nordenfelt -10° to +15° elevation 36 Rpm
Ammo: (Click to show)


AP:


5,7 cm Gr. m.P (P) (Aphe (No Tracer)) 3,1 kg 0,12 kg Fp.02 487m/s with 40mm/10m penetration.

Screenshot 2023-07-21 215455
Screenshot 2024-08-03 091918


HE:


5,7 cm Gr. (P) (He (No Tracer)) 2,75 kg 0,16 kg Fp.02 487m/s Some Penetration

Screenshot 2023-07-21 215443
Screenshot 2024-08-03 091952


Utility:


Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 3,6 kg (?)

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(Here next to the HE grenade)
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5,7 cm Gruson L/25,6

Only employed on the Fahrpanzer (at least 1 self propelled Truck Combo was constructed amd photographed, more were build in the fashion, but badly documented.)

Armor: 40mm Cast Iron, lower hull 10-14,5mm Steel Plating.

Caliber: 57mm

Ammo: 57x250mmR

Fire Rate: 30-35 rpm

Single Shot

Muzzle velocity: 490-495m/s

Weight: 160kg

Mounting: Main Fixed turret Gun 360° Traverse at 24°/sec +/-10° Elevation

Ammo Types: APHE, HE


AP:


5,7 cm Gr. m.P (P) (Aphe (No Tracer)) 3,1 kg 0,12 kg Fp.02 490m/s with 40mm/10m penetration.

Screenshot 2023-07-21 215455
Screenshot 2024-08-03 091918


HE:


5,7 cm Gr. (P) (He (No Tracer)) 2,75 kg 0,16 kg Fp.02 495m/s Some Penetration

Screenshot 2023-07-21 215443
Screenshot 2024-08-03 091952


Utility:


Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 3,6 kg (?)

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(Here next to the HE grenade)
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5,7 cm Hotchkiss L/40

While it is a 5,7 cm Hotchkiss L/40 gun, germany produced and used their own ammo in their different

Picture of the Marienwagen II: (Click to show)


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5,7 cm guns such as the:
It has 550-554 m/s, -15° to + 90° elevation with 20-25 rpm


AP:


5,7 cm Gr. m.P (P) (Aphe (No Tracer)) 3,1 kg 0,12 kg Fp.02 550m/s with 47mm/10m penetration.

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Screenshot 2024-08-03 091918


HE:


5,7 cm Gr. (P). (HE (No Tracer)) 2,75 kg 0,16 kg Fp.02 and 554 m/s

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Screenshot 2024-08-03 091952



7,7 cm FK 96 n.A. L/27 (And derivatives)
Pictures:(Click to show)



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The 7,7 cm FK 96 n.A. L/27 was the pre war modernized (n.A. → neue Art (New Model)) 7,7 cm Field gun, it was a small and light desinge, which was quite outdated even by the 1900s standart (its from 1896). With the original desinge beeing fixed, without recoil cylinders. While ideal for the early WW1 part where there was more movement, in the later stages its short range came to its disatvantage.

However its one of the most iconic WW1 Field Guns.

Caliber: 77mm

Ammo: 77x234mmR

Fire Rate: ~15 rpm (In the Flak Mount up to 25 rpm)

Single Shot, Horizontal Sliding Breech block

Muzzle velocity: 465-500m/s

Weight: 1020kg

Mounting: Main Gun, Field Gun, AA Gun

Ammo Types: APHE, HE, Smoke, Shrapnell, Canister

Note:
The German WW2 Made drawings have for the plain HE grenades different weights, duo to new fuzes, the British source FROM 1918 is in that aspect more accurat, with the exception to the Shrapnell and APHE rounds!

(Amatol could also have a 1,26x TnTa.)


AP:


K.Gr. 15 m.P. (Aphe (No Tracer)) 6,85 kg 230g Fp.02 470m/s 52mm/10m penetration

Screenshot 2023-07-26 185616
Screenshot 2024-07-26 150837
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184523
Screenshot 2024-08-05 182821
Screenshot 2024-08-05 182953


K.Gr. 15 m.P. m.L. (Aphe) 7 kg 230g Fp.02 465m/s 52mm/10m penetration

Screenshot 2023-07-26 184846


K.Gr.16 (Saphe (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 700g Amatol 480m/s 30+mm/10m(Historical 20mm/600m)

With Lg.K.Z.m.V., also available as pure HE with E.K.Z. 16/23 fuze (see below under HE)
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HE:


K.Gr. 15 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 7,1 kg 380g amatol or 270g Pieric acid 465m/s

(TNTa for the Pieric Acid In Game x1,1, IRL x1,2, for the Amatol x1,26)
Screenshot 2023-07-26 184237
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184353
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K.Gr.16 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 700g Amatol 480m/s

With E.K.Z. 16/23, also available as SAHPE with the Lg.K.Z.m.V. (see above under AP)
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Screenshot 2024-08-05 182722
Screenshot 2024-08-05 183025


L.F.K.Gr. (He-TF (No Tracer)) 7,18 kg 930g amatol (1,172 kg TnTa) 465m/s

(Pieric Acid ig x1,1=770g, IRL x1,2=840g) other fillers are 700g Pieric acid or 820g amatol with 75g Pieric acid.
Screenshot 2023-07-26 184253
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184450


Utility:


Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 6,65 kg Steel/Leadballs 475m/s

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F.Schr.96 (umg.) (Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 7 kg 0,1 kg Blackpowder 465m/s

Works like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, with a timed fuze mid flight ejecting the Steel/Leadballs, against Infantry and planes.
Filling of x300 10g Lead Balls or 220 Steel Balls (with steel balls 6,85 kg)
Some incendary effect by the pitch around the balls.
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Screenshot 2024-07-26 201036
Screenshot 2024-07-26 201049


Br.Schr.Gr. (Incendary Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 6,8 kg 0,167 kg Blackpowder 470m/s

6 Rows of 5 Segments of Incendary Pellets, Made of Bariumnitrate-Magnesium-Resin of 13g each.
Works like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, with a timed fuze mid flight ejecting the Incendary Pellets onto the Airtarget.
Screenshot 2024-08-09 205639


K.Gr.16 (N) (Smoke (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 0,4 kg Fp.02 and 0,1 kg Smoke mixture 480m/s

Screenshot 2024-08-05 182733
Screenshot 2024-08-05 183007



7,7 cm FK 16 L/35 (And derivatives)
Pictures:(Click to show)



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Caliber: 77mm

Ammo: 77x230mmR

Fire Rate: ~15 rpm (In the Flak Mount up to 25 rpm)

Single Shot, Horizontal Sliding Breech block

Muzzle velocity: 545-602m/s

Weight: 1318kg

Mounting: Main Gun, Field Gun, AA Gun

Ammo Types: APHE, HE, Smoke, Shrapnell, Canister, SAPHE

Note:
The German WW2 Made drawings have for the plain HE grenades different weights, duo to new fuzes, the British source FROM 1918 is in that aspect more accurat, with the exception to the Shrapnell and APHE rounds!

(Amatol could also have a 1,26x TnTa.)


AP:


K.Gr. 15 m.P. (Aphe (No Tracer)) 6,85 kg 230g Amatol 550m/s with 65mm/10m (has no tracer)

Screenshot 2023-07-26 185616
Screenshot 2024-07-26 150837
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184523
Screenshot 2024-08-05 182821
Screenshot 2024-08-05 182953


K.Gr. 15 m.P. m.L. (Aphe-T) 7 kg 230g Amatol 545m/s with 65mm/10m (has a tracer)

Screenshot 2023-07-26 184846


K.Gr.16 (Saphe (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 700g Amatol 580m/s 30+mm/10m(Historical 20mm/600m)

With Lg.K.Z.m.V., also available as pure HE with E.K.Z. 16/23 fuze (see below under HE)
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He:


K.Gr.15 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 7,1 kg 380 g Amatol or 270 g Picric acid 545m/s

(TNTa for the Pieric Acid In Game x1,1, IRL x1,2, for the Amatol x1,26)
Screenshot 2023-07-26 184237
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184353
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K.Gr.16 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 700g Amatol 580m/s

With E.K.Z. 16/23, also available as SAHPE with the Lg.K.Z.m.V. (see above under AP)
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Screenshot 2024-08-05 182722
Screenshot 2024-08-05 183025


L.F.K.Gr. (He-TF (No Tracer)) 7,18 kg 930g amatol (1,172 kg TnTa) 540m/s

(Pieric Acid ig x1,1=770g, IRL x1,2=840g) other fillers are 700g Pieric acid or 820g amatol with 75g Pieric acid.
Screenshot 2023-07-26 184253
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184450


C-Geschoß (He (No Tracer)) 6,09 kg 550-600g Amatol 602m/s

(streamlined boat tail long range shell also usefull for AA)
Screenshot 2023-07-29 010736
Screenshot 2024-08-05 184504
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Screenshot 2024-08-05 182757
Screenshot 2024-08-05 183043


Utility:


Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 6,65 kg Steel/Leadballs 555m/s

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F.Schr.96 (umg.) (Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 7 kg 0,1 kg Blackpowder 545m/s

Works like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, with a timed fuze mid flight ejecting the Steel/Leadballs, against Infantry and planes.
Filling of x300 10g Lead Balls or 220 Steel Balls (with steel balls 6,85 kg)
Some incendary effect by the pitch around the balls.
image
Screenshot 2024-07-26 201036
Screenshot 2024-07-26 201049


Br.Schr.Gr. (Incendary Shrapnell-TF (No Tracer)) 6,8 kg 0,167 kg Blackpowder 550m/s

6 Rows of 5 Segments of Incendary Pellets, Made of Bariumnitrate-Magnesium-Resin of 13g each.
Works like a Crude WW1 AHEAD round, with a timed fuze mid flight ejecting the Incendary Pellets onto the Airtarget.
Screenshot 2024-08-09 205639


K.Gr.16 (N) (Smoke (No Tracer)) 6,25 kg 0,4 kg Fp.02 and 0,1 kg Smoke mixture 580m/s

Screenshot 2024-08-05 182733
Screenshot 2024-08-05 183007



8,8 cm SK L/45

The gun is the 8,8 cm SK L/45 in MPL C/13 mounting, having 50mm armor angled 30°backwards and on the horizontal around 10° with 12mm thick sides.
-10° to +70° elevation, 360° traverse, a crew of 7 (on the vehicle)
around 40-60 shells placed in the vehicle sides like on the other AA vehicles of that time.
(It could also be an 10,5 cm Sk in that lafette or an 8,8 cm SK L/45 drilled out to 10,5 cm, it is not exactly visible in the picture and the writing on the photo is an forum identification, so unreliable with a grain of salt).

The gun itself is actually allready in game, tho with ww2 ammo.

The gun will recive 2 rounds:(Click the names to show)


AP:


Sprgr. L/3,8 (Iz.) (Aphe (No Tracer)) 10 kg 0,64 kg Fp.02 or pieric acid 795m/s 114mm/10m

Screenshot 2023-07-21 163337
Screenshot 2024-08-16 155529


HE:


Sprgr. L/3,6 (Kz.) (He-TF (With and W/o Tracer) 10kg 0,56 kg Fp.02 795m/s

Screenshot 2023-07-21 163317
Screenshot 2024-08-16 155445
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Sprgr. L/3,7 (He-TF (No Tracer) 9,75 kg 0,58 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 805m/s

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Screenshot 2024-08-16 160321
Screenshot 2024-08-16 160311


Sprgr. L/3,9 (He-TF (No Tracer) 9,75 kg 0,582 kg Fp.02 and Np.10 (745g TnTa) 805m/s

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The He (L/3,6 NOT L/3,8) existed both with and without Tracer (Leuchtspurhülse Nr.2)

(Kz. means Kopfzünder/Head/Impactfuze and Iz. Interner Zünder/internal fuze, the round has an special hardened steel ap head with a fuze under it).


(Sources in the main Post)

7 Likes

I’m surprised they didn’t use this gun on other armored vehicles other than the Dicker Max. It has very good performance (at least in-game), and as you state it was very effective even against uparmored KV-1Es.

IIRC it was also a option for the Tiger I.
And performance from in game aside, for long ranges against heavy targets they often simply loaded the Gr.19 at Max Load, cince every hit garanteed a mobility kill, as it could easily destroy the running gear and tracks.

1 Like

Makes sense, though it’s not really an option in-game to go for mobility kills.

Would be quite interesting to see a Tiger 1 with the long 105 from the Dicker Max, definitely an interesting combo.

1 Like

That’s a round for initial aim adjustments. It has the ballistics of the AP round but is fitted with an impact fuze. So a big spotting round.

Topic “cleaned” from previous answers to have alle the main thread with the first 2 comments together

3 Likes

I have added to part 2 at the end a small WW1 Section (still also WIP and may also be expanded, if there are more guns that existed in some self propelled form, or at least planned with incomplete prototypes, such as Marienwagen Gepanzert, which was to carry 2x 2 cm Becker Mk.II and 2x 13,2mm Mg TuFs).
Added the 5,3 and 5,7 cm Gruson Guns, as found on the Fahrpanzer of which at least 1 was placed on a Truck.

Even tho with hella loud music, it shows full films of shooting, including the stubby 3,7 cm Sockel-Flak L/14,5.

What is the actual suggestion you are making?

This isnt a suggestion. Its an informatic topic.

2 Likes

I see.I wish the Forum was properly set out like any other forum : )

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thanks this will be useful

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scalled up maxim machin gun funny

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Updated with the addition of 3,7 cm Pfeilgeschoss/granate (APHE-FS) and 8,8/5,25cm Pfeilgeschoss (APHEDSFS) More info and possible tests greatly appreciated!

2 Likes

I’ve seen some sources saying that the Germans called the 5,7 cm Maxim-Nordenfelt L/26 the “Belg. 5,7cm K.” Is this true?

No idea, but captured ammo had casings of belgian production and i remember that some guns were captured there, so maybe?

Fortress gun

In 1887 the Belgian War Ministry ordered 185 5.7 cm fortress guns to arm their fortresses including Namur and Liege. The 5.7 cm Maxim-Nordenfelt was a short 26 caliber gun and not the longer 42-50 caliber QF 6-pounder Nordenfelt naval gun. It was a typical built-up gun of the period made of steel with a vertical sliding-block breech and it fired fixed QF ammunition of a number of different styles. The guns were mounted in Grusonwerke gun turrets or in armored casemates on central pivot mounts and used in an anti-personnel role.[1]

Infantry gun

In addition to its fortress gun role, it was deployed in an infantry gun role. The guns were mounted on light two-wheeled box trail carriages without a recoil mechanism and protected by a three-sided gun shield. During 1914 the Germans captured large numbers of these guns and used them in the infantry gun role mainly to engage enemy machine gun nests in support of infantry assaults. In 1916 the Germans had 450 of these infantry guns in service.[1]

Also, I found the original manual the names Gr. (P.) Gr.m.P. (P.).
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It’s not a P. in parentheses, it’s a ? and the . after the P is actually the dot on the question mark. This makes sense because it’s a British document from 1918 and, judging by the abbreviation table in this document, Gr. would just be Gross which just means “Large” and Gr.m.P. would be Gross mit Phosphor which means “Large with Phosphorus,” neither of which make sense. So now I am trying to find the actual designation, but I don’t know where to start.

1 Like

I know of that, its Notes on German Shells 1918 Second edition. (Or first)
And your assumtions is completly wrong.
Gr. Is Granate (Grenade) and m.P. is mit Panzerkopf (with AP head.)

1 Like

This is not my assumption, this is this own document’s abbreviation table.
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The document lists Granate as G., not Gr., and P. is listed as Phosphor. Even if this was P. (P.), that would be Pulver.

Granate mit Panzerkopf would make sense, but this document lists the abbreviations as Gross and Phosphor.

1 Like