Real Shatter 1.0 was a golden era of Fw 190 F8 gameplay, haha, I feel so dirty now.
It’s the same people in this thread.
Pretty sure Kiwi has advocated for lower damage since the beginning of time.
He did not advocate for ridiculously low damage like during RS 1.0.
Also, at least he’s been consistent and logical. Unlike you and your “well, we want kinda realistic flight models and magical fantasy blaster cannons”.
Yeah, makes sense.
BTW, IRL it took on average about 4 M-geschoss hits to down a fighter. And that was basically what was happening in game.
Some guns were just too weak, even if we adjusted them in a realistic fashion (while Shvak or Ho-5 should be weaker in structural damage, the average number of shells to kill shouldn’t exceed 8, while for Ho-5 for a long time it was well above 10).
But we can’t have that, since “competitive br0s” have moved the goalposts.
Before it was: heeey, MG151/20 is too powerfull, other cannons do nothing (in some cases, it was true).
Now comp-br0s have 20mm 1-shotting everything and anything less than that = instant “oh my god, I can’t be cumpetitive, my gunz do no damage, if they don’t 1-shot, how can Gaij00b balance the game!!!”.
Well, let me remind you, Tempest V is same BR as Yak-3U and it’s been like that for several years.
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That’s true 😌
But I‘m also for fixing every other shell that isn’t explosive, since since the dawn of time Gaijin only seemed to focus on them.
Also I‘m more against planes having their wings and tails getting blasted off by 12.7mm and 20mm explosive shells that bring less explosive into the target than a single 20mm Mineshell.
Bombers should be freaking tanky and brining them down should require some serious firepower and a big focus on incendiary ammunition.
There was a time when taking 3xMK 108s on a Bf 109 was a viable option to bring down B-17s, instead of a Bf 109 with a single MG 151/20 ripping the tail of a B-17 with no effort.
At the same time I also don’t want bombers to get sprayed from 1km by .50cals and get set on fire but I already made a report that might significantly reduce their effective range.
Unfortunately Gaijin has done nothing to address the performance differences of incendiary ammunition.
20mm and 30mm Incendiary does nothing but give players a worse default belt option.
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Good thing you reminded me about 12.7 - yesterday poor guy in I-185 was trying to stall fight my G55 S0, I fired a burst from 950m away, I was covering quite a wide arc, so at best he got hit by 4 bullets, snap goes the tail, because I landed 2-4 Breda HE bullets. Same would happen if he got hit by MG131s. Same would happen if he got hit by two (yes, 2) Berezin bullets.
Generally, it’s ridiculous to me that we’re at the point where ANY reasonable person would arm their plane with 3-4 nose mounted Berezins with 100% HE belts, as it’s literally the best range vs hitting power combo that is either superior or equal to every other A2A weapons we have in game as it’s perfectly capable of 1-clicking any WW2 fighter out of the sky, and if somehow dispersion prevents it - cripple it behond any further dogfighting ability
And surprisingly, Soviets never attempted it and instead created La-9, Yak-9UT, 3-cannon armed La-7 etc.
Wonder me wonder why…
Now Imagine F2G with pure HE belts. It would get to 6.7 within a week via forcing and winning head-ons vs everything, haha.
Edit: I have written about 4 M-geschoss hits per fighter shot down, but now I’m kinda dubious. Do you by any chance know if this claim is legit?
No, but based on that a 30mm Mineshell will most likely do it, it’s pretty likely.
4 hits deal around the same structural damage but also have the chance to hit fuel tanks, pilots or cooling systems.
The Germans made quad 20mm mounts, since single 20mm AA were pretty obsolete to shoot down fighters, at least with their WW2 RoF.
So four to five 20mm are probably as effective as a single 37mm.
In the example with the P-47, a 37mm was around 5 times as effective than a single 20mm, but that was also against the front, where the 37mm had a very high chance to knock out the engine.
Around 4.5-5 20mm bring the same fragment amount into the target as a 37mm but more hits means more chance for a one shot kill.
30mm Mineshells were more deadly to fighters than 37mm HEF-T, because fighters have far less structure than bombers.
It takes around 1.5x 37mm to take out fighter, since there’s always the chance that some place is hit where the high damage doesn’t matter, so you would sometimes need two 37mm hits.
Then we’re talking about 5-6 20mm HEFI hits in comparison.
Of course the smaller the target, the more effective Mineshells become.
For a Bf 109 and Yak we are probably talking about 2-3, Spitfire 3-4 and P-47 4-5.
For an IL-2 it’s probably 6-7 because the fuselage, with engine, pilot and fuel, is practically immune, leaving only wings and tail controls to damage.
Even though I’m not sure how those wooden wings are holding up to Mineshell damage.
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@KillaKiwi
Well, one thing for sure, Yak-3U was designed specifically to counter that, thanks to innovative Soviet lizard-tail technology.
You can shed significant parts of both wings and dogfight, you can shed a part of a tail and still be flying fine, while enemy thinks he scored a kill.
I heard Stalin designed it himself, shaping its fuselage aerodynamic model out of 21370kg marble block using his bare fingers, as if it was clay.
Anyway, my aim absolutely sucks, missed all 30mm shots, I played this match like an absolute muppet in general, but god damn, I thought he’s not going to be able to stall fight without a wingtip, yet he completed super low speed stall maneuver no problem. Then he almost got me with no left wing. Then he lost half his elevator and got his rudder heavily damaged and it did not cause any further problems.
To kill this guy I had to j-out (I had 40s of fuel and 0 ammo and would not make it back to base in time anyway).
I don’t think that buffing the guns is any kind of solution to such problems, lol.
BTW in 30mm it’s the other way around with AP vs HE. Switched from air belt to HVAP belt and it’s more reliable and has way better range. }
Typical Gaijin :D
Also it’s hilarious that Do-335B2 is pretty bad for ground RB because of how 20mm HE works (basically any 1000 ROF, 1000+m/s SPAA will end it in miliseconds), and how much it compresses with bombs, but for Air RB it’s excellent, it’s 100% brainless gameplay, and now I’ve discovered the magic of anti-air HVAP, so I’m gonna make good use of it.
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Sad thing is in War Thunder that would’ve been “Aircraft shot down, tail cut loose”. Possibly with the first shell.
Whilst MG-151’s may have needed a slight buff making everything broken to keep everyone happy is a crap way of doing things. It also sets a dangerous precedent that we can beg for anything as “gameplay” trumps realism.
For a change of pace I did some bombing last night in my Stirling in SB. Half spaded with 500lb bombs loaded it took forever to climb to around 12,000ft where you’re immune to airfield defences. The Tunisia map is genuinely not long enough for this bomber to get to altitude if that gives you any idea of the time it took.
Just before I got to the base a 109G-10 with no added cannons shredded me pretty much instantly, “Thunk” Tail cut loose. Zero chance to fight back. I’m fairly certain he was using the MG-151 as he was shooting down fighters earlier… either that or he was a superb shot.
This isn’t me just attacking the German cannon, the Hispano and Shvak are every bit as bad. Everything that fires anything with HE filler in game is massively broken. Take a look at the hits on the Spitfire in the picture above and compare that to the size of a freaking Stirling before saying “Nah bruv mine shells bruv”.
You are absolutely right.
But a big problem of bombers is, Gaijin doesn’t really see a difference between Stirling, Pe-8 and G8N.
Meanwhile I die basically every time I kill G8, and with Pe-8 it’s a toss up, while Sterling is an easy kill, it doesn’t really have a chance to fight back.
So some bombers are ABSOLUTE PAIN to face because of 3-plane stabilised superhuman gunners behind 20mm nuke launchers, while other bombers are just food.
Sterling would be able to shrug off dozens of mineshells (because mineshell, unlike traditional HE, scales in a non-linear, negative fashion with size of target from certain point onwards, and that certain point probably lies somewhere around Me-410, so a 2 times bigger volume of wing may result in 4 times less damage, because of pressure wave getting more dispersed and thus less effective, and very few bigger fragments are much more likely to get stopped by thick wing ribs, and spars before they get anywhere) but that’s just my guess based on “feel”) and IRL pilots would try to go for cockpit in head-on or load AP/IT belt and go for engines, preferably with several 20mm on board, sure as hell not one.
But bombers are generally treated like absolute … in Air RB, but Air RB is such a half-baked mode with 0 real thinking behind objectives and without any idea how to implement anything but fighters and to some extent attackers.
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Yeah killed a B-17 with a single MG 151/20 and in another match I killed one with two Ho-5s while a Yak-3 casually sawed off the wing of another B-17 in a single pass from the side and below.
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Haha, today I fired a burst from below in Do-335 with 3xMK103 and 2xMG151/20. My shooting wasn’t very good, but pop goes the wing. I checked results table post match and lo and behold, the wing was lost to MG151/20, I scored a hit with MK103 only later (he was flying through stream of shells and MG151/20 has higher ROF, so it made sense). So basically 2 M-geschoss broke B-17 wing in half.
Real sh*tter 3.0 20mm does better job than pre-RS 3.0 MK108 which required me to score a few hits usually.
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I could live with that damage against fighters but bombers are just sitting ducks unless they have cannon’s themself.
Free SL piñata
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The 103 30mm and the 20 mm have wildly different trayectories, unless you set the guns to converge vertically to a set range it they will not hit the same place at range, the 30mm just overshoot it.
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I was firing straight up my friend, and bomber was flying perpendicular to me, around 1000m away, through the stream of shells.
The entire point is, the first thing he encountered was 20mm, maybe because it wasn’t perfectly vertical and the shell dipped just enough towards the bomber and struck it earlier but most likely due to sheer luck.
And that 20mm, maybe 1, maybe 2, was enough to end him.
What happened to me today is the best summary of current state of cannons and aircraft.
Yak-3P tanks 30mm HE to the face, then manages to nick my Do-335 tail and it falls off.
Jesus Christ.
Just German WW 2 planes. The Me-262 can full burst “hit, hit, hit, hit” a Russian Mig-9 and co. But then gets a stray tracer and half the plane desintegrates. Couple it with many of them being criminally overtiered. And it certainly isn’t because of performance, their performance is abysmal.
Seriously, compare these two planes.
One of these has a better turn time, higher G resistance, is faster, has better ground pounding potential, much higher velocity ammunition, and is all around better. In Realistic these two are at the same BR. In Arcade the better one actually goes down to 6.7 while the worse one goes up to 7.3.
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Fun fact, in 262 I was able to get a metric gaijinton of firing opportunities that would have scored me the kill with Shvaks, but since I only had MK108s, my shells flew a mile behind the enemy despite leading them by a mile and firing at relatively short range while also closing the distance so my shells got some additional velocity.
I just wish we could get 2xMK103 262, I know it’s not entirely historical, but armanent was basically modular and all it would take to do that would be to remove useless MK108s and MG151s from A1/U1.
wait what??? those do damage!?
i remember giving up on air belts on those because it felt like HE did nothing
did i miss some update or what
Real Shatter 3.0.
MG131 HE bullet is breaking planes apart like there’s no tomorrow too. You jist have to hit the same module a 3-4 times.
I heavily rely on Bredas in my G55 S0
I just wish the MG 131 would be more accurat when defensive armarment.
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