Gameplay is becoming increasingly monotonous!

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
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@dirtyann The mountain area of Sands of Sinai was exclusively a CQC brawling area that prevented flanking on over half of the map.
That field area of Normandy amounted to 1 flanking route, 1. Singular.
Of course you hate the map with the most flanking routes in the game…
The wood mill area down from the castle is still there:
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Well, enjoy thinking that everyone that loves flanking is dishonest. All you do is prove us all correct.
I endorse the views of everyone else in this topic; I endorse the views of everyone that is pro-flanking. They represent me and my views well.
Enjoy ignoring every single pro-flanking person on the forum.

Also @_Marco

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Cities without roadblocks are 100% flanking networks.
I’ve flanked more people on Iberian Castle than I have on the top 3 open maps.
Cause flanking is about going around opponents, which is harder on open maps.
Which is why Sweden has well over 50 flanking routes while Sands of Sinai is less than 10.
Sands of Sinai had like 1 - 3 flanking routes before its CQC brawling area was removed.

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Haha, It took you too long to realize.

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Oh wow, they really have to be great ;).
I guess you mean sneaky routes for ambushes. I think the number of these remained to same at best over the past few years.
And I want to note that my point about scouting still stands here:

Looking at this route, if a light tank noticed and scouted you, maybe before you killed him or by hearing you through some buildings, your plan would have very likely failed. Depending on how the battle unfolds, your chance of survival is very slim, since in this scenario, where you’re in the middle of the city, surrounded by roads, every enemy knows practically exactly where you’re going.
So the success of these tactics depends massively on whether the right type of tank notices you or not. This is a kind of gamble that is intended to help beginners, but massively limits these types of tactics.

Do they have an explanation for that? How do they think tanks like the Object 120 should be played? By rushing the capture points?

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and i can say the same. you have a long distance flanking route. dangerous, enemy light tank may stumble across you and kill you
made up situation doesn’t remove the fact that these are still valid attemptable flanking roads regardless of how it unfolds in any match because every match is individual whereas every flanking road is static

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I mean each time I see his name on the forum he has some weird takes or is downright lying.

Saying that running around in a city is a flank is true in a sense but a real flank is wide and beside flanking, having room to breathe outside of urban environment isnt bad for gameplay, it can even help escaping the spawn.

Honestly seeing the current map design and redesign they just want to funnel poeple into a big furball in the middle like they did in ARB.

That kills a lot of ways to play and makes a lot of vehicles like TD’s obsolete and unfun since everything can pen them from the front past 5.7-6.7 anyways and playing them is forcing you into these mazes of CQB mess.

So what remains is brawling in a fishbowl in some urban environments or hiding behind a dune in “large” maps since they’re just too open to allow for any movement, both styles are at the extremes.

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Excellent post, Marco.
I appreciate your patience and civility.

I am a flanking addict, it’s partially why while Carpathians is among my favorite maps, it’s not a flanking map, never was.
However, my most favorite maps currently are Sweden, Pradesh, Iberian Castle, and Sands of Sinai.
While Sands doesn’t have many flanking routes, the other 3 have a host of routes, with the urban maps having flanking networks.

Pradesh has deeply unique flanking routes that I cannot get into detail over because I learned them myself and haven’t seen anyone else use them yet. Those stay secret.
However, if it’s an urban map, any route that breaks line of sight and gets you around an opponent successfully is a flanking route.

Once you understand the deep hole that is flanking, you will see routes pop up in the moment.
I did an 8.0 China match today or yesterday on Iberian Castle and I couldn’t tell you the route I took cause I made it up on the spot, I flanked over 6 enemy tanks that match using… an artillery piece, this one:
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Not only is it a “tank destroyer”, it only fires HE.

And yeah, the threat of light tanks are always present. They’re more of a threat on open maps where they have better visibility of course.

I love open maps, and I have to acknowledge that open maps have less flanking routes inherently due to the inability to break line of sight with enemies as often as with buildings.

With all of that said: Brawling is head-to-head. Sniping is head-to-head at longer range, brawling at longer range.

I hope you learn something from this, I hope at least the changes on Sweden make sense to you in opening possibilities for light tanks and TDs alike.

@dirtyann
Militaries say flanks aren’t inherently wide. I trust them over you.

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I get what you mean, you can still be sneaky.
But I would definitely say that within a city you are on territory where medium and heavy tanks dominate. So you basically just use your speed in order to avoid contact with these types of tanks in certain situations.
My opinion is that the options for light tanks used to be way more diverse. On these maps it’s basically just hoping alleys.
Also, what would you say about TDs, are they as usable on maps like Sweden?

Sweden has more “flanking” routes which are really just alleys light tanks can drive through faster.
But which map has the better flanking spots? I would definitely say Sands of Sinai.

And ofc you can still play light tanks in maps like Sweden, I do and it works. But if light tanks wouldn’t have suffered in the public eye Gaijin wouldn’t have added things like scouting in order to give them purpose again.

It won’t be able to kill me through cover by clicking v at me. In that situation it would actually be about skill, everybody has the same tools.

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Turreted TDs are 100% usable, and casemates I’ve used a number of times with JPz IV. It’s effectively the same available routes as a turreted just less intersection safety.

A singular flanking route would be a route that is surrounded on both sides by “walls” a wide flanking route is 1 route, but 7 roads without intersections taking up that same width separated by buildings is 7 flanking routes.

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But are they less usable. Ofc you can play them like medium tanks but that’s not where their strengths are.
Sweden offers a certain meta. Every map suits a different pallet of tanks but that pallet used to be bigger. Would I play the Jagdtiger on many of the new maps? Ofc not, there is very few spots were the Jagdtiger’s advantages can actually be capitalized.
Many of these maps are built around medium tanks.

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Jagdtiger on Sweden is hilariously good.

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Where do you play it? Is there some kind of underground layer or what am I missing? What makes you spawn a Jagdtiger over a Tiger 2 or M41?

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B is my generally preferred area of Sweden, though I have an A bias over C.
C has major flanking potential that requires at least 5 team mates to control.
B is more manageable despite having more flanking routes than C.
A is controlled chaos.

As for my preference, I removed the M41 from my lineup the moment it got spaded. It’s primarily a Tiger II lineup at this point.
Jagdtiger had to get removed for more space as well otherwise it’s back in.
I pick Jagdtiger when I want a massive gun and armor.

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Agreed, it’s stale, same with AIR RB, I think we need a new mode for it like Air RB EC since it’s just infinitely boring and now ground rb is too, we need new maps and modes, not more vehicles

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And it’s incredibly easy to not be seen on most maps. If anything, light tanks are much better than they used to be because they now outperform medium tanks in many ways (applicable to WWII BRs).

Maps suck, but the reworks are good, and the community is incapable of actually using critical thinking to analyse them. I can’t stand it when people think small map=bad, big map=good, because it’s incredibly shortsighted and completely untrue.

Most of which are good changes.

TDs may not be as good, but light tanks excel on many of those maps. Sweden, Vietnam, and Italy are all quite large, so having a highly mobile tank allows you to actually flank and move around the map much more efficiently.

@dirtyann Sinai was a good change because it forced more long range combat by eliminating a CQC alley. Normandy was ruined because of the cap placement.

Then give actual detailed feedback.

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The main issue with most urban maps is that the sightlines are too long, and/or too straight. Despite being much smaller, Rhine feels like such a huge map compared to Sun city because of how compact everything is.

I can also say that Gaijin sucks at cap placement relative to the map borders, while also failing to create flanking along the sides where you aren’t forced into a headon encounter. American desert, some vietnam variants, sun city, and seversk all do this, and it makes them less enjoyable.

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That’s why I love Iberian Castle and Sweden so much, there’s limited sight lines outside of select areas.

Seversk is my banned map currently.

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I used to have it banned until Attica came around. It’s a marginally better map, but my FPS just dies on it.

Iberian castle is underrated, same with El Alamein, Rhine, and Mozdok. They all have decent cap placements, while also allowing for flanking and some long range combat. People also need to realize that flanking isn’t just hugging the map border too.

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9615-hypervomit
Literally tard proof map, that one. God forbid you try flanking there because every route has spawn to spawn sightlines. Or red zone, or untraversable terrain.
Screw that place.

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So I do agree with how you described the map.

In the end it just comes down to me thinking there is almost no reason to bring out a TD like the Jagdtiger on this map. Ofc you can but I would always choose a Tiger 2 over it because you are very limited with the Jadtiger.
B is the only area were it has a realistic chance of survival.

If you believe we are in a light tank meta I’m on your side. I want to be clear, I would love to have them nerfed by removing the scouting feature.
But since that would make most of them inferior, in return they should get a real purpose again by reworking the maps.
And it is just “incredibly easy not to be seen” when limiting your own gameplay. I used to play the M18 before scouting and you could do so many more things. Today every tactics where you risk somebody seeing you is just useless anymore.

If you want the game to be easier, they are. If you want it to be more challenging, they aren’t.

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To clarify a few things:

I’ve marked everything related only to light tanks in blue and everything related only to TDs in green. I think this makes it easier to keep track of which type of tank I’m referring to.

Of course, you can still use light tanks and tank destroyers. But in the past, tanks had their own, more separate roles. Today, there are attempts to squeeze all tank classes into an environment that used to be the playgrounds of primarily medium and heavy tanks.

While today light tanks are primarily characterized by the scouting feature and reconnaissance drones, in the past, it was way more about mobility and the possibilities that came with it that distinguished them.

This is no surpirse; the game design used to reward mobility much more. As already described in the original post, the map design provided more tactical options for many light tanks. On top of that, the scouting and drone features often take away light tanks’ most important weapon: remaining unnoticed. So even players who think today’s maps are better or just as good have to admit that the scouting feature represents a major disruption to the tactical gameplay of light tanks, although, paradoxically, they are the ones who primarily have access to this feature.
So like that Scouting replaces the original role of light tanks, which is increasingly diminishing. On top of that that’s not even an adequate replacement, but that’s a completely different story.

Today’s game design essentially forces you into urban warfare. If your team is too weak and the enemy gains the upper hand, you often lose control, having to take on multiple enemies in close combat at once.
In the past, you could influence such developments in a battle much more effectively by playing good positional games with the right tank or attacking the enemy from behind with a fast tank.
On many of today’s maps, once the enemy has gained the upper hand, you can no longer maneuver as well with a fast tank and can no longer disrupt the enemy.
A casemate tank, for example, is also much more vulnerable in today’s War Thunder if the enemy gains the upper hand.
No matter where you position your Jagdtiger in Sweden, for example, the point at which you lose control inevitably comes very quickly when your team collapses.
In most battles, you quickly reach the point where you can no longer get your foot in the door.

I’m convinced this lack of control and hopelessness is what frustrates many players and causes them to avoid respawning.
If you take a look at the leaderboards, you’ll see that it’s primarily non-premium players who leave the battle early. I’m not here to defend the premium tank policy, but it often serves as a distraction from a much deeper problem.

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