Gameplay is becoming increasingly monotonous!

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
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Both single cap exceptions to the rule.
Thanks for proving my post correct.

Not only that, but that single cap Normandy has more flanking routes then the legacy maps in the original post.

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These are the 5 routes I used to flank 4 enemy players in T-90M.

Flanking is not stealth, it’s not running away 2km to go around.
Flanking, as taught in American Football and militaries is the act of go around an opponent. Distance irrelevant.

@_Marco
Maybe I will, but I need to determine if I want to keep my routes secret or not.

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tanks arent for sniping according to gaijin mods

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If they at least put something historical, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Cold War, without this everyone against everyone thing it would already improve 30%

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@dirtyann
Fulda is the same exact size it was on release, I know cause I was on Fulda this week.
Sands of Sinai losing the CQC area was a net benefit.
Normandy effectively didn’t change, it lost 1 route out of the 20+ routes it has.
Sweden gained 30+ flanking routes.
Sands of Sinai gained 5+ flanking routes with the removal of the CQC brawling area.
Fulda flat out didn’t change.

Keep defending CQC all you want.

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Nope, I despise CQB lol…But I want space to move…

That area was not only for CQC, it was solid to avoid the long stretches of open terrain to get to C

Normandy lost its whole forested/field area on top of C point, you could use the village and buildings and church to flank and snipe from there.

Worst map in the game.

Fulda lost is whole wood mill area down from the castle.

Honestly you’re really one of a kind and that will be my last answer towards you, I don’t want to interract with someone as dishonest as you anymore.

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@dirtyann The mountain area of Sands of Sinai was exclusively a CQC brawling area that prevented flanking on over half of the map.
That field area of Normandy amounted to 1 flanking route, 1. Singular.
Of course you hate the map with the most flanking routes in the game…
The wood mill area down from the castle is still there:
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Well, enjoy thinking that everyone that loves flanking is dishonest. All you do is prove us all correct.
I endorse the views of everyone else in this topic; I endorse the views of everyone that is pro-flanking. They represent me and my views well.
Enjoy ignoring every single pro-flanking person on the forum.

Also @_Marco

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Cities without roadblocks are 100% flanking networks.
I’ve flanked more people on Iberian Castle than I have on the top 3 open maps.
Cause flanking is about going around opponents, which is harder on open maps.
Which is why Sweden has well over 50 flanking routes while Sands of Sinai is less than 10.
Sands of Sinai had like 1 - 3 flanking routes before its CQC brawling area was removed.

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Haha, It took you too long to realize.

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Oh wow, they really have to be great ;).
I guess you mean sneaky routes for ambushes. I think the number of these remained to same at best over the past few years.
And I want to note that my point about scouting still stands here:

Looking at this route, if a light tank noticed and scouted you, maybe before you killed him or by hearing you through some buildings, your plan would have very likely failed. Depending on how the battle unfolds, your chance of survival is very slim, since in this scenario, where you’re in the middle of the city, surrounded by roads, every enemy knows practically exactly where you’re going.
So the success of these tactics depends massively on whether the right type of tank notices you or not. This is a kind of gamble that is intended to help beginners, but massively limits these types of tactics.

Do they have an explanation for that? How do they think tanks like the Object 120 should be played? By rushing the capture points?

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and i can say the same. you have a long distance flanking route. dangerous, enemy light tank may stumble across you and kill you
made up situation doesn’t remove the fact that these are still valid attemptable flanking roads regardless of how it unfolds in any match because every match is individual whereas every flanking road is static

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I mean each time I see his name on the forum he has some weird takes or is downright lying.

Saying that running around in a city is a flank is true in a sense but a real flank is wide and beside flanking, having room to breathe outside of urban environment isnt bad for gameplay, it can even help escaping the spawn.

Honestly seeing the current map design and redesign they just want to funnel poeple into a big furball in the middle like they did in ARB.

That kills a lot of ways to play and makes a lot of vehicles like TD’s obsolete and unfun since everything can pen them from the front past 5.7-6.7 anyways and playing them is forcing you into these mazes of CQB mess.

So what remains is brawling in a fishbowl in some urban environments or hiding behind a dune in “large” maps since they’re just too open to allow for any movement, both styles are at the extremes.

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Excellent post, Marco.
I appreciate your patience and civility.

I am a flanking addict, it’s partially why while Carpathians is among my favorite maps, it’s not a flanking map, never was.
However, my most favorite maps currently are Sweden, Pradesh, Iberian Castle, and Sands of Sinai.
While Sands doesn’t have many flanking routes, the other 3 have a host of routes, with the urban maps having flanking networks.

Pradesh has deeply unique flanking routes that I cannot get into detail over because I learned them myself and haven’t seen anyone else use them yet. Those stay secret.
However, if it’s an urban map, any route that breaks line of sight and gets you around an opponent successfully is a flanking route.

Once you understand the deep hole that is flanking, you will see routes pop up in the moment.
I did an 8.0 China match today or yesterday on Iberian Castle and I couldn’t tell you the route I took cause I made it up on the spot, I flanked over 6 enemy tanks that match using… an artillery piece, this one:
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Not only is it a “tank destroyer”, it only fires HE.

And yeah, the threat of light tanks are always present. They’re more of a threat on open maps where they have better visibility of course.

I love open maps, and I have to acknowledge that open maps have less flanking routes inherently due to the inability to break line of sight with enemies as often as with buildings.

With all of that said: Brawling is head-to-head. Sniping is head-to-head at longer range, brawling at longer range.

I hope you learn something from this, I hope at least the changes on Sweden make sense to you in opening possibilities for light tanks and TDs alike.

@dirtyann
Militaries say flanks aren’t inherently wide. I trust them over you.

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I get what you mean, you can still be sneaky.
But I would definitely say that within a city you are on territory where medium and heavy tanks dominate. So you basically just use your speed in order to avoid contact with these types of tanks in certain situations.
My opinion is that the options for light tanks used to be way more diverse. On these maps it’s basically just hoping alleys.
Also, what would you say about TDs, are they as usable on maps like Sweden?

Sweden has more “flanking” routes which are really just alleys light tanks can drive through faster.
But which map has the better flanking spots? I would definitely say Sands of Sinai.

And ofc you can still play light tanks in maps like Sweden, I do and it works. But if light tanks wouldn’t have suffered in the public eye Gaijin wouldn’t have added things like scouting in order to give them purpose again.

It won’t be able to kill me through cover by clicking v at me. In that situation it would actually be about skill, everybody has the same tools.

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Turreted TDs are 100% usable, and casemates I’ve used a number of times with JPz IV. It’s effectively the same available routes as a turreted just less intersection safety.

A singular flanking route would be a route that is surrounded on both sides by “walls” a wide flanking route is 1 route, but 7 roads without intersections taking up that same width separated by buildings is 7 flanking routes.

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But are they less usable. Ofc you can play them like medium tanks but that’s not where their strengths are.
Sweden offers a certain meta. Every map suits a different pallet of tanks but that pallet used to be bigger. Would I play the Jagdtiger on many of the new maps? Ofc not, there is very few spots were the Jagdtiger’s advantages can actually be capitalized.
Many of these maps are built around medium tanks.

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Jagdtiger on Sweden is hilariously good.

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Where do you play it? Is there some kind of underground layer or what am I missing? What makes you spawn a Jagdtiger over a Tiger 2 or M41?

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B is my generally preferred area of Sweden, though I have an A bias over C.
C has major flanking potential that requires at least 5 team mates to control.
B is more manageable despite having more flanking routes than C.
A is controlled chaos.

As for my preference, I removed the M41 from my lineup the moment it got spaded. It’s primarily a Tiger II lineup at this point.
Jagdtiger had to get removed for more space as well otherwise it’s back in.
I pick Jagdtiger when I want a massive gun and armor.

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Agreed, it’s stale, same with AIR RB, I think we need a new mode for it like Air RB EC since it’s just infinitely boring and now ground rb is too, we need new maps and modes, not more vehicles

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And it’s incredibly easy to not be seen on most maps. If anything, light tanks are much better than they used to be because they now outperform medium tanks in many ways (applicable to WWII BRs).

Maps suck, but the reworks are good, and the community is incapable of actually using critical thinking to analyse them. I can’t stand it when people think small map=bad, big map=good, because it’s incredibly shortsighted and completely untrue.

Most of which are good changes.

TDs may not be as good, but light tanks excel on many of those maps. Sweden, Vietnam, and Italy are all quite large, so having a highly mobile tank allows you to actually flank and move around the map much more efficiently.

@dirtyann Sinai was a good change because it forced more long range combat by eliminating a CQC alley. Normandy was ruined because of the cap placement.

Then give actual detailed feedback.

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The main issue with most urban maps is that the sightlines are too long, and/or too straight. Despite being much smaller, Rhine feels like such a huge map compared to Sun city because of how compact everything is.

I can also say that Gaijin sucks at cap placement relative to the map borders, while also failing to create flanking along the sides where you aren’t forced into a headon encounter. American desert, some vietnam variants, sun city, and seversk all do this, and it makes them less enjoyable.